[liberationtech] [cpsr-activists] Rebuttal to "The Social Dilemma" Movie

Paul tallpaul at gmail.com
Sat Oct 3 21:14:19 CEST 2020 

That's a great convenience. However, my initial impression would be that
you will really want to have people click an <okay> button to acknowledge
that they *want you* to fill out a form for them, since, among other
things, this now makes their donations publicly searchable, I believe.  And
just so that they know that you are doing it.

Paul Cz

On Sat, Oct 3, 2020, 12:03 PM Yosem Companys <ycompanys at gmail.com> wrote:

> Also, we are working on making the filling out and submittal of FEC forms
> automatic, so people will do so without even realizing it upon signing up
> for the app.
>
> On Sat, Oct 3, 2020 at 12:01 PM Yosem Companys <ycompanys at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Agreed. Unfortunately, FEC form is required for donating. For candidates
>> (especially local ones), however, our app would streamline campaign finance
>> because our app does all the paperwork automatically in the back end, so
>> candidates would dramatically reduce the administrative burdens that often
>> prevent them from being able to accept small donations.
>>
>> On Sat, Oct 3, 2020 at 11:50 AM Paul <tallpaul at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Thank you for the response, Yosem.
>>>     #2 (the *second *#2 😛) is especially interesting, though filling
>>> out an FEC form feels to me like a fairly big obstacle to entry for users.
>>>
>>>   Paul Cz.
>>>
>>> On Sat, Oct 3, 2020, 8:35 AM Yosem Companys <ycompanys at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> 1. Wevoyce doesn't return any hits on Google Play.  Is the app only
>>>> available from your site, at this time?
>>>>
>>>> The app is approved for the Apple and Android stores, but we have yet
>>>> to open for downloads. The only way to download the app at this time is via
>>>> special link. I will send you one separately.
>>>>
>>>> 2. When it talks about propositions (I think that was the word) does
>>>> this mean only actual laws, ballot proposals, etc, or does it mean just
>>>> something that someone advocates and is looking for support for?
>>>>
>>>> Think of a prop as a 435-character petition labeled by a hashtag. There
>>>> are two types:
>>>>
>>>>    - ?VoteFor props that are automatically tied to candidates (e.g.,
>>>>    ?VoteForBiden or ?VoteForTrump).
>>>>    - Props focused on causes (e.g., ?SupportProChoice or
>>>>    ?SupportProLife).
>>>>
>>>> Users can interact with props as they would on social media:
>>>>
>>>>    - Follow props.
>>>>    - Reply to props.
>>>>    - Like props.
>>>>    - Etc.
>>>>
>>>> 2. Do you have to put in $5 in order to use the app, or just if you
>>>> want to contribute?
>>>>
>>>> No, just if you want to contribute.
>>>>
>>>> Participation is tiered based on real-world validation:
>>>>
>>>>    - Using the app is free (i.e., there is no financial cost to using
>>>>    the app). Anyone may download the app, set up an account, and do the
>>>>    following: (1) read propositions, (2) read what people post, and (3) vote
>>>>    on props and what people say.
>>>>    - Anyone who registers to vote (and thus verifies they are a real
>>>>    person) may post.
>>>>    - Anyone who fills out the FEC form may donate. To ensure real
>>>>    people have a real impact, donating occurs via liking, as little as a
>>>>    penny. We call it, "Put your $ where your <3 is." Anytime you like
>>>>    something, you are donating to it, so you need to put at least $5 in your
>>>>    account to like things.
>>>>
>>>> One thing to note is that all the donations end up going to political
>>>> candidates in at least three ways (and this is how we are campaign finance
>>>> reform in an app):
>>>>
>>>>    - You may donate to candidates directly via their VoteFor prop.
>>>>    - You may advocate candidates. If anyone likes you, any likes
>>>>    (i.e., real money) you receive go to the candidate(s) you advocate.
>>>>    - You may donate to a cause prop, and politicians who publicly
>>>>    commit to support these causes get a share of the donations. (You are told
>>>>    in advance who will get your donations.)
>>>>
>>>> Reading, voting, and donating can be private. Posting is always public.
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Oct 1, 2020 at 12:55 PM Paul <tallpaul at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Yosem,
>>>>>      I just started the signup process and I have three questions:
>>>>>     1) do you have to put in $5 in order to use the app, or just if
>>>>> you want to contribute?
>>>>>     2) Wevoyce doesn't return any hits on Google Play.  Is the app
>>>>> only available from your site, at this time?
>>>>>     3) when it talks about propositions (I think that was the word)
>>>>> does this mean only actual laws, ballot proposals, etc, or does it mean
>>>>> just something that someone advocates and is looking for support for?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>   Paul
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Oct 1, 2020, 12:18 PM Paul <tallpaul at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Yosem,
>>>>>>    Thanks for letting us know about Wevoyce. I just skimmed it but
>>>>>> the bits about "real people*," upvoting and, especially, micro donations,
>>>>>> sound very interesting.
>>>>>>    Since my career has been in software testing, I will at least try
>>>>>> it and let you know about anything I see.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   Paul Czyzewski
>>>>>>
>>>>>> * As long as you don't get swamped by real people who are, for
>>>>>> example, Proud Boys or NRA members
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Oct 1, 2020, 12:04 PM Yosem Companys <ycompanys at gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Excellent point, Nathaniel.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Some of us at Liberationtech have gotten together to try to fix
>>>>>>> political discourse on social media and campaign finance by developing a
>>>>>>> new mobile-based solution called Wevoyce. If you and others on the list
>>>>>>> would like to check it out and give us feedback, please let me know. We
>>>>>>> would really appreciate it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>> Yosem
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, Oct 1, 2020 at 11:42 AM Nathaniel Borenstein via
>>>>>>> cpsr-activists list <cpsr-activists at lists.cpsr.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This may sound naive, but here goes…
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Social media are just the latest way for people to communicate.
>>>>>>>> All the other ways we have found to communicate have allowed us to express
>>>>>>>> both the best and the worst of ourselves.  It’s often easier to figure out
>>>>>>>> how to express the worst, but that doesn’t mean we can’t focus on the best.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> To my mind the right question is this:  how can we use social media
>>>>>>>> to create countervailing trends to the ones we have spent so much time
>>>>>>>> bemoaning?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Unfortunately it is possible that the best answers to this question
>>>>>>>> will require wrenching control of the social media landscape from big
>>>>>>>> companies, but I suspect there is a fair amount we can do short of that. —
>>>>>>>> Nathaniel
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Oct 1, 2020, at 12:33 PM, Doug Schuler via cpsr-activists list <
>>>>>>>> cpsr-activists at lists.cpsr.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> One question is certainly why would one person use social media.
>>>>>>>> The "CPSR" angle on it in my opinion would be something like this: Given
>>>>>>>> the immense damage that social media as it's currently deployed and used
>>>>>>>> wreaks on society, the public sphere, democracy, mental health, whatever
>>>>>>>> you want to call it, what ought computer professionals do about it?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It seems like other hams that are perpetrated in that it affects
>>>>>>>> different people unequally.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But I would also argue that, as with TV, individuals can "turn it
>>>>>>>> off" but they can't turn off social media culture...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Wed, Sep 30, 2020 at 8:28 PM Paul via cpsr-activists list <
>>>>>>>> cpsr-activists at lists.cpsr.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> rant
>>>>>>>>>>     I think that the crucial issue with facebook, twitter, etc is
>>>>>>>>>> not just how manipulative they are, or are not.  It's how Jeff long ago
>>>>>>>>>> answered TV.  I.E., don't use it at all.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>      Of course I realize that this side-steps the issue for the
>>>>>>>>>> hundreds of millions of people who *do* use them.   But, news aside, they
>>>>>>>>>> are too much of a time sink and, IMO, the signal to noise ratio is
>>>>>>>>>> unbelievably low.*  Since I'm ranting, I'll throw in my Twitter analogy;
>>>>>>>>>> it's like opening and reading two hundred fortune cookies because
>>>>>>>>>> *one* of them may include something that you're glad you've
>>>>>>>>>> read.**  I'm not a very productive person, and I'm in no critical function
>>>>>>>>>> (well, for a few more weeks, I will help some US Census enumerators who are
>>>>>>>>>> having payroll issues) but, even when I'm unemployed, my time is *far* too
>>>>>>>>>> valuable to spend on social media.
>>>>>>>>>>     One more opinion before I step off my high-horse.  Getting
>>>>>>>>>> news from Facebook or other social media is totally a losing proposition.
>>>>>>>>>> Advising people on how to fix it, or how to confirm what they read, is a
>>>>>>>>>> waste of time.  The crucial part of getting news is to somehow find some
>>>>>>>>>> trustworthy sources, and start from there.  I don't agree with the spin on
>>>>>>>>>> everything in the NY Times but I fully believe that, for reasons of the
>>>>>>>>>> personal integrity of the journalists and also to protect their bottom
>>>>>>>>>> line, they are never going to invent things that they print.
>>>>>>>>>> /rant off
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> paul czyzewski
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> * if there was a way for me to just see my friends' family photos
>>>>>>>>>> on facebook; ie, no news, and also no "vital" links passed on my
>>>>>>>>>> well-meaning friends, I'd probably start looking at it again.  But I think
>>>>>>>>>> that there is (deliberately) no way to filter it that way.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> **  I once gave twitter what I thought was a fair test. There
>>>>>>>>>> were tsunami warnings in Hawaii so I used  some filter -- I don't know if
>>>>>>>>>> it's still exists or not -- to watch a stream of tweets about that,
>>>>>>>>>> real-time.  Instead of the hoped-for "I see the wave entering the harbor;
>>>>>>>>>> small boats are being overturned," I saw tweets on the order of "The news
>>>>>>>>>> reported that, 30 minutes ago, the waves were twenty miles away."
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Sep 30, 2020 at 7:46 PM Jeff Johnson via cpsr-activists
>>>>>>>>>> list <cpsr-activists at lists.cpsr.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> This article argues that “The Social Dilemma” movie is overblown:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20200928/11452045401/social-dilemma-manipulates-you-with-misinformation-as-it-tries-to-warn-you-manipulation-misinformation.shtml
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Jeff
>>>>>>>>>>> ____________________________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> For all list information and functions, see:
>>>>>>>>>>>      http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/cpsr-activists
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ____________________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
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>>>>>>>>> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
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>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> For all list information and functions, see:
>>>>>>>>>      http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/cpsr-activists
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Douglas Schuler
>>>>>>>> douglas at publicsphereproject.org
>>>>>>>> Twitter: @doug_schuler
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>> Public Sphere Project
>>>>>>>>      http://www.publicsphereproject.org/
>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Creating the World Citizen Parliament
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://interactions.acm.org/archive/view/may-june-2013/creating-the-world-citizen-parliament
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Liberating Voices!  A Pattern Language for Communication Revolution
>>>>>>>> (project)
>>>>>>>>      http://www.publicsphereproject.org/patterns/lv
>>>>>>>> <http://www.publicsphereproject.org/patterns/>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Liberating Voices!  A Pattern Language for Communication Revolution
>>>>>>>> (book)
>>>>>>>>  http://mitpress.mit.edu/catalog/item/default.asp?ttype=2&tid=11601
>>>>>>>> ____________________________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ____________________________________________________________
>>>>>>>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>>>>>>>      cpsr-activists at lists.cpsr.org
>>>>>>>> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
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>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
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