[liberationtech] [cpsr-activists] Rebuttal to "The Social Dilemma" Movie

Sat Oct 3 21:43:24 CEST 2020

Yes, the plan is for the landing page to have an opt-in checkmark
specifying this.

On Sat, Oct 3, 2020 at 12:14 PM Paul <tallpaul at gmail.com> wrote:

> That's a great convenience. However, my initial impression would be that
> you will really want to have people click an <okay> button to acknowledge
> that they *want you* to fill out a form for them, since, among other
> things, this now makes their donations publicly searchable, I believe.  And
> just so that they know that you are doing it.
>
> Paul Cz
>
> On Sat, Oct 3, 2020, 12:03 PM Yosem Companys <ycompanys at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Also, we are working on making the filling out and submittal of FEC forms
>> automatic, so people will do so without even realizing it upon signing up
>> for the app.
>>
>> On Sat, Oct 3, 2020 at 12:01 PM Yosem Companys <ycompanys at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Agreed. Unfortunately, FEC form is required for donating. For candidates
>>> (especially local ones), however, our app would streamline campaign finance
>>> because our app does all the paperwork automatically in the back end, so
>>> candidates would dramatically reduce the administrative burdens that often
>>> prevent them from being able to accept small donations.
>>>
>>> On Sat, Oct 3, 2020 at 11:50 AM Paul <tallpaul at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Thank you for the response, Yosem.
>>>>     #2 (the *second *#2 😛) is especially interesting, though filling
>>>> out an FEC form feels to me like a fairly big obstacle to entry for users.
>>>>
>>>>   Paul Cz.
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Oct 3, 2020, 8:35 AM Yosem Companys <ycompanys at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> 1. Wevoyce doesn't return any hits on Google Play.  Is the app only
>>>>> available from your site, at this time?
>>>>>
>>>>> The app is approved for the Apple and Android stores, but we have yet
>>>>> to open for downloads. The only way to download the app at this time is via
>>>>> special link. I will send you one separately.
>>>>>
>>>>> 2. When it talks about propositions (I think that was the word) does
>>>>> this mean only actual laws, ballot proposals, etc, or does it mean just
>>>>> something that someone advocates and is looking for support for?
>>>>>
>>>>> Think of a prop as a 435-character petition labeled by a hashtag.
>>>>> There are two types:
>>>>>
>>>>>    - ?VoteFor props that are automatically tied to candidates (e.g.,
>>>>>    ?VoteForBiden or ?VoteForTrump).
>>>>>    - Props focused on causes (e.g., ?SupportProChoice or
>>>>>    ?SupportProLife).
>>>>>
>>>>> Users can interact with props as they would on social media:
>>>>>
>>>>>    - Follow props.
>>>>>    - Reply to props.
>>>>>    - Like props.
>>>>>    - Etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> 2. Do you have to put in $5 in order to use the app, or just if you
>>>>> want to contribute?
>>>>>
>>>>> No, just if you want to contribute.
>>>>>
>>>>> Participation is tiered based on real-world validation:
>>>>>
>>>>>    - Using the app is free (i.e., there is no financial cost to using
>>>>>    the app). Anyone may download the app, set up an account, and do the
>>>>>    following: (1) read propositions, (2) read what people post, and (3) vote
>>>>>    on props and what people say.
>>>>>    - Anyone who registers to vote (and thus verifies they are a real
>>>>>    person) may post.
>>>>>    - Anyone who fills out the FEC form may donate. To ensure real
>>>>>    people have a real impact, donating occurs via liking, as little as a
>>>>>    penny. We call it, "Put your $ where your <3 is." Anytime you like
>>>>>    something, you are donating to it, so you need to put at least $5 in your
>>>>>    account to like things.
>>>>>
>>>>> One thing to note is that all the donations end up going to political
>>>>> candidates in at least three ways (and this is how we are campaign finance
>>>>> reform in an app):
>>>>>
>>>>>    - You may donate to candidates directly via their VoteFor prop.
>>>>>    - You may advocate candidates. If anyone likes you, any likes
>>>>>    (i.e., real money) you receive go to the candidate(s) you advocate.
>>>>>    - You may donate to a cause prop, and politicians who publicly
>>>>>    commit to support these causes get a share of the donations. (You are told
>>>>>    in advance who will get your donations.)
>>>>>
>>>>> Reading, voting, and donating can be private. Posting is always public.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Oct 1, 2020 at 12:55 PM Paul <tallpaul at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Yosem,
>>>>>>      I just started the signup process and I have three questions:
>>>>>>     1) do you have to put in $5 in order to use the app, or just if
>>>>>> you want to contribute?
>>>>>>     2) Wevoyce doesn't return any hits on Google Play.  Is the app
>>>>>> only available from your site, at this time?
>>>>>>     3) when it talks about propositions (I think that was the word)
>>>>>> does this mean only actual laws, ballot proposals, etc, or does it mean
>>>>>> just something that someone advocates and is looking for support for?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>>   Paul
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Oct 1, 2020, 12:18 PM Paul <tallpaul at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi Yosem,
>>>>>>>    Thanks for letting us know about Wevoyce. I just skimmed it but
>>>>>>> the bits about "real people*," upvoting and, especially, micro donations,
>>>>>>> sound very interesting.
>>>>>>>    Since my career has been in software testing, I will at least try
>>>>>>> it and let you know about anything I see.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   Paul Czyzewski
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> * As long as you don't get swamped by real people who are, for
>>>>>>> example, Proud Boys or NRA members
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, Oct 1, 2020, 12:04 PM Yosem Companys <ycompanys at gmail.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Excellent point, Nathaniel.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Some of us at Liberationtech have gotten together to try to fix
>>>>>>>> political discourse on social media and campaign finance by developing a
>>>>>>>> new mobile-based solution called Wevoyce. If you and others on the list
>>>>>>>> would like to check it out and give us feedback, please let me know. We
>>>>>>>> would really appreciate it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>> Yosem
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, Oct 1, 2020 at 11:42 AM Nathaniel Borenstein via
>>>>>>>> cpsr-activists list <cpsr-activists at lists.cpsr.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> This may sound naive, but here goes…
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Social media are just the latest way for people to communicate.
>>>>>>>>> All the other ways we have found to communicate have allowed us to express
>>>>>>>>> both the best and the worst of ourselves.  It’s often easier to figure out
>>>>>>>>> how to express the worst, but that doesn’t mean we can’t focus on the best.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> To my mind the right question is this:  how can we use social
>>>>>>>>> media to create countervailing trends to the ones we have spent so much
>>>>>>>>> time bemoaning?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Unfortunately it is possible that the best answers to this
>>>>>>>>> question will require wrenching control of the social media landscape from
>>>>>>>>> big companies, but I suspect there is a fair amount we can do short of
>>>>>>>>> that. — Nathaniel
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Oct 1, 2020, at 12:33 PM, Doug Schuler via cpsr-activists list <
>>>>>>>>> cpsr-activists at lists.cpsr.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> One question is certainly why would one person use social media.
>>>>>>>>> The "CPSR" angle on it in my opinion would be something like this: Given
>>>>>>>>> the immense damage that social media as it's currently deployed and used
>>>>>>>>> wreaks on society, the public sphere, democracy, mental health, whatever
>>>>>>>>> you want to call it, what ought computer professionals do about it?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It seems like other hams that are perpetrated in that it affects
>>>>>>>>> different people unequally.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But I would also argue that, as with TV, individuals can "turn it
>>>>>>>>> off" but they can't turn off social media culture...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Sep 30, 2020 at 8:28 PM Paul via cpsr-activists list <
>>>>>>>>> cpsr-activists at lists.cpsr.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> rant
>>>>>>>>>>>     I think that the crucial issue with facebook, twitter, etc
>>>>>>>>>>> is not just how manipulative they are, or are not.  It's how Jeff long ago
>>>>>>>>>>> answered TV.  I.E., don't use it at all.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>      Of course I realize that this side-steps the issue for the
>>>>>>>>>>> hundreds of millions of people who *do* use them.   But, news aside, they
>>>>>>>>>>> are too much of a time sink and, IMO, the signal to noise ratio is
>>>>>>>>>>> unbelievably low.*  Since I'm ranting, I'll throw in my Twitter analogy;
>>>>>>>>>>> it's like opening and reading two hundred fortune cookies because
>>>>>>>>>>> *one* of them may include something that you're glad you've
>>>>>>>>>>> read.**  I'm not a very productive person, and I'm in no critical function
>>>>>>>>>>> (well, for a few more weeks, I will help some US Census enumerators who are
>>>>>>>>>>> having payroll issues) but, even when I'm unemployed, my time is *far* too
>>>>>>>>>>> valuable to spend on social media.
>>>>>>>>>>>     One more opinion before I step off my high-horse.  Getting
>>>>>>>>>>> news from Facebook or other social media is totally a losing proposition.
>>>>>>>>>>> Advising people on how to fix it, or how to confirm what they read, is a
>>>>>>>>>>> waste of time.  The crucial part of getting news is to somehow find some
>>>>>>>>>>> trustworthy sources, and start from there.  I don't agree with the spin on
>>>>>>>>>>> everything in the NY Times but I fully believe that, for reasons of the
>>>>>>>>>>> personal integrity of the journalists and also to protect their bottom
>>>>>>>>>>> line, they are never going to invent things that they print.
>>>>>>>>>>> /rant off
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> paul czyzewski
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> * if there was a way for me to just see my friends' family
>>>>>>>>>>> photos on facebook; ie, no news, and also no "vital" links passed on my
>>>>>>>>>>> well-meaning friends, I'd probably start looking at it again.  But I think
>>>>>>>>>>> that there is (deliberately) no way to filter it that way.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> **  I once gave twitter what I thought was a fair test. There
>>>>>>>>>>> were tsunami warnings in Hawaii so I used  some filter -- I don't know if
>>>>>>>>>>> it's still exists or not -- to watch a stream of tweets about that,
>>>>>>>>>>> real-time.  Instead of the hoped-for "I see the wave entering the harbor;
>>>>>>>>>>> small boats are being overturned," I saw tweets on the order of "The news
>>>>>>>>>>> reported that, 30 minutes ago, the waves were twenty miles away."
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Sep 30, 2020 at 7:46 PM Jeff Johnson via cpsr-activists
>>>>>>>>>>> list <cpsr-activists at lists.cpsr.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> This article argues that “The Social Dilemma” movie is
>>>>>>>>>>>> overblown:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20200928/11452045401/social-dilemma-manipulates-you-with-misinformation-as-it-tries-to-warn-you-manipulation-misinformation.shtml
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Jeff
>>>>>>>>>>>> ____________________________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>>>>> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
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>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> For all list information and functions, see:
>>>>>>>>>>>>      http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/cpsr-activists
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ____________________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>>>>>>>>>      cpsr-activists at lists.cpsr.org
>>>>>>>>>> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>>>>>>>>>>      cpsr-activists-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> For all list information and functions, see:
>>>>>>>>>>      http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/cpsr-activists
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Douglas Schuler
>>>>>>>>> douglas at publicsphereproject.org
>>>>>>>>> Twitter: @doug_schuler
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>> Public Sphere Project
>>>>>>>>>      http://www.publicsphereproject.org/
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Mailing list ~ Collective Intelligence for the Common Good
>>>>>>>>>      * http://lists.scn.org/mailman/listinfo/ci
>>>>>>>>> <http://lists.scn.org/mailman/listinfo/ci>4cg-announce*
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Creating the World Citizen Parliament
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> http://interactions.acm.org/archive/view/may-june-2013/creating-the-world-citizen-parliament
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Liberating Voices!  A Pattern Language for Communication
>>>>>>>>> Revolution (project)
>>>>>>>>>      http://www.publicsphereproject.org/patterns/lv
>>>>>>>>> <http://www.publicsphereproject.org/patterns/>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Liberating Voices!  A Pattern Language for Communication
>>>>>>>>> Revolution (book)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> http://mitpress.mit.edu/catalog/item/default.asp?ttype=2&tid=11601
>>>>>>>>> ____________________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>>>>>>>>      cpsr-activists at lists.cpsr.org
>>>>>>>>> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>>>>>>>>>      cpsr-activists-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> For all list information and functions, see:
>>>>>>>>>      http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/cpsr-activists
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ____________________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> You received this message as a subscriber on the list:
>>>>>>>>>      cpsr-activists at lists.cpsr.org
>>>>>>>>> To be removed from the list, send any message to:
>>>>>>>>>      cpsr-activists-unsubscribe at lists.cpsr.org
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> For all list information and functions, see:
>>>>>>>>>      http://lists.cpsr.org/lists/info/cpsr-activists
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
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