[liberationtech] Interesting things

[Paola Di Maio]

Lorelei
glad to be having this conversation, and sorry its all a bit ranty

But I dont have a good framework to frame conspiracy
First let me say. I am not talking about US Congress . but in general world
politics
I take the opportunity to congratulate Congress or was it Senate for
exercising presidential veto to be a terrorist and send bombs to fuel
another crude oil war. That was an excellent move and the greatest example
of how  citizens really can be in charge of a critical decision and impact
the world in a positive way.  On this occasion can bow to the democratic
institution that works, but unfortunately. in preceding administrations,
the terrorist in the government managed to cause havoc and to also get
other leaders to support the, remember Iraq 2003? were you around then?
I was. and followed closely events. The media were covering up a lot of
stuff (by disinformation) and the journalists who deviated from the stories
given to the embedded media, were shot down by friendly fire. and then the
official story was
they were shot down because they were filming outside what they were
protected (allowed) to film. https://www.itv.com/news/topic/terry-lloyd/
I rarely watch TV, but exactly when Terry Lloyd announced on ITV that what
the BBC had just broadcast was 'not true'and that he would file a report
after the break (advertising) he was taken down.
 having worked with governments and democratic institutions in different
world constituencies, I have seen that they hire young, clean folks to
represent them
but that there are hardened criminals moving strings behind the scene

I have seen a lot of perversion of the facts and events for the purpose of
political manipulation to the point of murder.

But lets take Congress as a good example.
If you work within a democratic political institution, you obviously
believe that it operates according to its principles that a) give it is
powers b)that it declares it operates under. That it does what it says that
it does the way it says it does. And this is probably true. at least to the
extent that such processes can be monitored. But after decades of working
within (trying to work within) legal frameworks of governance institutions
I have come to identify some of the pathologies, that sometimes lie at the
heart of the dichotomies and paradoxes which make up the real world.
One example:  the democratic institution organises an open meeting, where
all parties and individual citizens are equally welcome to attend and make
their representation. The institution operates a policy of non harrasment,
equality and inclusion.
But on the floor, one participant attacks another and tells everyone that
this person is (something really objectionable to them) and not to talk
them or cooperate with this person in any way, in fact, they should be
thrown out of the meeting because they are not who they say the are (a
citizen like everyone else there) but something else
and that they have insider knowedge

Upon further investigation, it turns out that 'someone else'(a third party
not on the scene)  with personal motives (racial hatred, or personal
vendettas or other interest) had privatey briefed the attacker telling them
some undisclosed fact  (possibly some lie) to trigger a strong response
that results in an innocent participant, who is probably unaware and trying
to figure out who is saying what to whom and why they are being thrown out
of the meeting.

The bottom line is that some very proper people within legal institutions,
who believe in democracy and follow the legitimate processes, are sometimes
(how often we dont know) being misled, misinformed lied to, and manipulated
to make them do what
someone else wants, for some (illegitimate) private motive ilke personal
vendettas, persecution or discrimination.

It happens a lot, everywhere.  Even worse, misleading and damaging
information (possibly stolen by hacking or made up entirely, difficult to
tell) is drippled (I think I made up a new word) underground and passed as
ínsider information to swarms of people online (including
cyberanarchists?)  to make them act against others.
  Agent provocateurs, as they call them, know what buttons to press to make
people fire in the direction they want.
They say ''I have insider information that person x is ....." something
unacceptable to them  . This happens a lot, at all levels, in man
legitimate institutions
I have seen it in airlines univerisites and yes of course corporations
including tech companies.  CEOs all cladded in expensive suits and
travelling in private jets make sure their companies are associated with
social responsibility bla bla but in practices
some other people inside their organisations operate like mobs. Seen the
NESTLE case?
https://www.ft.com/content/cb9eeeb6-3dd5-11ea-a01a-bae547046735
Nestle is a massive corporation, and we must have all eaten Nutella, when
there is nothing else available. How can a company so big operate outside
the law?
Because Nutella (or whatever their brand is, including Apple, Google etc)
may be great, but the company is operated by thugs.  It can be very very
expensive and time consuming to put things right.  If this woman in  the
case above had some family issues or financial problems or health issues,
she could not have spent so many years trying to get a court to look into
Nestle wrongdoings. Now that she has. she may win compensation but Nestle
and all the other corporations will continue to operate the same way.

It can become very complex, it has to do with human fallibility,
perception. imperfection of how processes are managed etc.

I guess I am saying legitimacy vs thug vs anarchy vs terrorism vs state
terrorism are
not black and white.

PDM


On Fri, Jan 31, 2020 at 10:58 AM Lorelei Kelly <loreleikelly at gmail.com>
wrote:

> hi all
>
> As someone who worked in Congress for a decade and still works on digital
> infrastructure inside Congress (data for the democratic purposes you
> seemingly desire), I gotta tell you this  indeed reads like a vague rant
> (your words) and has no basis in the reality that I know and see on a daily
> basis.  Congress and "government" as you refer to it--is neither organized
> nor resourced enough to be so devious.  I'm not sure if that should make
> anyone feel better as it cannot compete with the private sector on many
> fronts (an increasingly predatory private sector in particular) Also, I'm
> curious as to why do you not have these negative conspiratorial ideas about
> tech corporations?.  They are at least equally capable of bad actions and
> they have actually carried out or else enabled the kinds of outcomes you
> describe.
>
> Democratic governments at least have the expectations of legitimacy i.e.
> that they are both accountable and competent.  Corporations often have
> neither of these requirements.
> LK
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 30, 2020 at 7:01 PM Paola Di Maio <paoladimaio10 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Rand
>> Yes,  i was defnitely generalizing -  the post I responded to was also
>> kind in that tone
>>
>> What I intended is not like  the example you gave in California , What I
>> intend is
>> that democratically elected governments should be representative of the
>> people, represent  and protect the citizen's interests,but the are not.
>> I have come to this realization in recent years only, that what is on
>> paper (constitution, legal statutes etc) does not correspond to truth at
>> all.
>> For examples I have no objections if some government want to know my
>> address or ID, because I have nothing to hide. But when the government
>> instigates the mob
>> to  harras me  so that I then have no other choice than to seek the help
>> of the government (or the law, or a legal foundation, or the cops) to
>> defend myself, is perverse and surely must be illegal? It is also hard to
>> prove in court, that the gangsters who have been robbing me were informed
>> about 'my every move; by
>> the same regime to whom I gave my whereabouts for legal reason.
>>
>> Governments obtain information 'legally'then give it to gangsters to get
>> dirty business done. so that they can then show that they can intervene and
>> rectify the problem. I would not have believed it possible, but I worked on
>> it.
>> People intercept 'my every move to counter it' is not legal.
>> But their excuse for surveillance is that they want to protect the
>> citizen. In the reality
>> they want to mob the citizen. That is the absurd reality, and not
>> legitimate way government  agencies should operate.
>>
>> Regarding the cryptoanarchy, I have definitely seen a lot of
>> cryptoanarchists
>> being puppets to the secret state. I cant make names because they would
>> definitely be at my door. since they know my every move. :-)
>> By masses I intended the scores of people who are scouted by movements by
>> leveraging some utopic ideals and then manipulated to commit gangster acts
>> under the protection of the deviated 'democratic institution'
>>
>> Sorry this is a bit of a vague rant, I just wanted to comment on the fact
>> that there is nothing wrong in being open about one's whereabouts. the
>> problem is how someone perverse who have access to it use it for a purpose
>> different and opposite from the purpose the data is shared.  And that
>> cryptoanarchy maybe not be anarchy after all
>>
>> P
>>
>> On Fri, Jan 31, 2020 at 1:06 AM Rand Strauss <Rand at peoplecount.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> 1. democratically elected governments, and law enforcement agencies, as
>>> legitimate entiteis, *should  *protect citizens freedoms
>>> and should protect them from surveillance. but they don’t.
>>>
>>>
>>> So you say.  But many people haven’t said so yet, through their
>>> governments.  Yes, some call for this, but not enough to make new laws in
>>> some countries.
>>>
>>> instead, government and law enforcement agencies operate outside the
>>> law, and work against legitimacy itself.
>>>
>>>
>>> This is a generalization and as such, inaccurate.  Governments here in
>>> California sell information to help their budgets.  It’s distasteful, but
>>> not yet against the law.
>>>
>>> 2.  cryptoanarchy is a device to fool the younger generations and enrol
>>> them into crypto culture then manipulate them. I am afraid secret states
>>> and deviated governments are behind, and part of, the cryptomovement, that
>>> s another way to steer the masses. together with disinformation.
>>> manipulation of facts and other tacticts
>>>
>>>
>>> This is interesting, but just an assertion, and another generalization.
>>> How are some being manipulated? And what are the stats- how many of the
>>> "masses" are being enrolled in the cryptomovement?  It sounds like you’re
>>> saying using Brave means one is being manipulated.  How so?
>>>
>>> -r
>>>
>>> Now burn me :-)
>>>
>>> PDM
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 9:56 AM grarpamp <grarpamp at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> > Be Brave, your browser won't explode.
>>>>
>>>> > Am also curious as to why Cloudflare hates Tor.
>>>>
>>>> Search CF CIA op, haters need you and the masses on clearnet so
>>>> they can surveil, predict, see, and counter your every move in realtime,
>>>> not least of which being your political activism vote. Better to wake
>>>> up,
>>>> rise, build and route around, thus dispense with them all forevermore.
>>>>
>>>> Governments hate cryptoanarchy [tor etc], not because it's a threat
>>>> to you, but because it's a threat to them. To them, blocking tor,
>>>> crypto[currency], comms tech, free speech, etc is just a survival
>>>> self-defense move against the evolution of world of now connected
>>>> peoples waking they don't need them anymore to get good things done.
>>>>
>>>> Why beg them to pocket half of what they steal from you for roads, why
>>>> advocate
>>>> they digital spy store sell your gps travels odometer rfid facial
>>>> register pay scheme...
>>>> when you can now already today anon smash that cryptocoin donate
>>>> crowdfund button on the QR code posted every kilometer by the local
>>>> communities and or private maintainers. It's that simple, that freedom.
>>>>
>>>> Wake up. Build Braver. Educate not to create/follow old fake
>>>> authority, not to "vote"
>>>> yourselves politik whim force demand over free peoples who have done
>>>> nothing,
>>>> as that struct will always be abused... but on personal
>>>> responsibility, non-agression,
>>>> freedom respecting interactions importance coming and building together,
>>>> charity, and more.
>>>>
>>>> Liberating beyond the limits of continually repeating the fail of
>>>> legacy structures,
>>>> into actual freedom, requires Bravery, indeed. You have it, find it
>>>> within, and use it.
>>>>
>>>> --
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>>>
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>> Liberationtech is public & archives are searchable from any major
>> commercial search engine. Violations of list guidelines will get you
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>
>
>
> --
>
>
> *Lorelei Kelly at loreleikelly @BeeckCenter @GeorgetownFellow and Director of
> Congressional ModernizationThis! Modernizing Congress: Bringing Democracy
> into the 21st Century
> <https://beeckcenter.georgetown.edu/report/modernizing-congress-bringing-democracy-into-the-21st-century/>TL:DR?
> Listen to this podcast
> <https://scholars.org/podcast/modernizing-congress>for an overview.*
>
>
>
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