[liberationtech] Interesting things

[Paola Di Maio]

Rand

I do not have the bw to reply to the long post, so just a few points quicly

>
>
> It’s a bit black or white, and cynical.
>
I dont think it is cynical, but dont have a problem if you thinks it is

Regarding conscience>consciousness> i have observed in myself and others
that mistakes'/flaws are generally attributable to imperfect
cognition/awareness of individuals
(the sum of which is society)
however again, I dont have a problem if you dont see it that way
maybe we could call the difference in levels of awareness a limited
viewpoint, language. or mindset, worldview or different background etc .


>

>>>>To me, that’s a (no offense) cheap/lazy justification.
No offense, but its the contrary, It means that we have to accept our share
of responsibility as individuals for the failures of society

>>> People do what seems appropriate.
yes, based on their knowledge/understanding of the situations
we can only just do that. thats why I think we can improve things by
improving our own understanding of the world

>>>> There’s no call for "higher consciousness."
I mean better understanding, problem solving ability, communication
come with  consciousness, but maybe not the best choice of words




>
I believe in accoutablity , I also believe in justice, I dont believe in
the ability of human societies to be able to upohold either, due to vast
scale systemic problems as well as to individual limitations of cognition
and awareness which impact the decision making. I am speaking about the
judges who issue sentences who may have limited cognition and not
understand for example the complexity of the case I described below, and
end up punishing the innocent folks. History is full


> It's like the folks who will come and rob you, beat you up, then go to
the police to tell that you robbed them, then the police arrests you, you
are jailed fined and scarred for life while the newspapers will tell the
story of how the thug is the hero. and everyone believes what is in the
newspapers, right?

This is the case here.


RS That seems to be an extreme comparison- a worry about something that
very, very rarely happens.


PDM  Happens every day to thousands of people, few cases are exposed even
fewer rectified, The fact that you may not know about them does not mean
they do not happen. I am a researcher in this field. I have facts in hand,
and nobody to go to with this data
showing the cases. Nobody cares.

RS  Really, how many people does it happen to?  While it occasionally
happens, and it is always possible, it’s certainly not a foregone
conclusion.  To me, it looks like fixating on a worst-case analogy.

PDM Happens a lot



>
> > yes, very easy, until someone is fabricating the data, the documetns and
manipulating
the system to show that what they did is compliant, while in reality it is
not.


RS  You’re arguing not that forces will oppose it, but that they’ll win-
cynicism.
PDM Experience

 You’re arguing that no checks and safeguards can be sufficient, so we
shouldn’t try- resignation.
PDM  Not resignation, and I did not say you should not try.

This is becoming too long for me - hay, thanks for the chat
Regarding your project, I am not the best advisor how to grow a political
movement
but would say that you may have to work on one or multiple strategies to
find your constituency. Maybe run for office?

Have a nice weekend

PDM




Cynicism and resignation are ways the status quo preserves itself.  Did you
choose this attitude?
Above you complained about wealthy people who were:  "controlled and
restrained by regimes, or social norms"
Aren’t you succumbing to this?  This whole project began when I saw that
was exactly what had happened to me- the status quo had shaped my attitude
into one that adapted to not productively opposing the system.  Sure, I
opposed it by complaining, but that’s mostly a way to accept the status quo.

Worse, there’s a very real human reaction of making others wrong when we
feel that we’re being dominated, when we feel we’re losing. We do this to
avoid responsibility- both to avoid the nagging fear that we’re
insufficient, as well as the nagging guilt that we’re culpable.  That was
part of my attitude- that others were wrong and it wasn’t my fault.
Blaming others and fighting others is an integral part of the status quo,
whether it’s Dems vs Repubs, Libs vs Cons, morally good vs bad, or
consciously evolved vs primitives.

Consider your thoughts from above about:


> if each of us can implement a value system... maybe the overall
collective responsible consciousness can emerge strong enough)


It sounds like you’re making others wrong, that their value system isn’t
enough.

I don’t see anyone else with a decent proposal, and when I’ve thought at
length (months, then years) about the ramifications, and planned strategies
to handle consequences, it seems like it has excellent chances.  Yes, it’s
not magic. Chaos with all its new permutations will present new, unimagined
challenges on any new foundation. And all the old human foibles will still
be with us.  But it’ll allow us to get over our existing problems- they are
mired in an era where democracy is unreliable- citizens can’t wield their
power so others easily pick it up.

But I urge you to only to give up on the status quo, not on unknown
possibilities.  Above you said:

> we ll continue to struggle against our limited cognition


The only problem with limited cognition is not admitting it, especially
when reality bites. 3 sure signs of being bitten are resignation, cynicism
and depending on a miracle.  The remedy for a limit begins with admitting
it.  Seeing it naturally leads to the possibility of something beyond that,
and an opportunity for new thinking. Then those of us who can need to do
the new thinking.

> ...we continue to have the same problems ... because we never cracked our
own limitations/obscurations as individuals


Or, maybe this is a red herring.  The only time we spend as individuals is
when we’re in our heads, and even then, we’re really products of society
contemplating alone. We're reciting to ourselves things that society has
taught us, or taught us to react to.  We’re all cogs in an extensive
network of systems and relationships.  What if honing our lives as
individuals is something that we’ve been taught and been rewarded for?
We’ve been inundated with Moses, Buddha, Jesus, Mohammed, Gandhi and many
more.  We learn to be proud of our grades and degrees and income and good
works.  We revere America’s founders, when they’re actual focus was a way
for us to live together.

Maybe the problem is that we’ve never risen to the challenge of being
responsible for those systems and relationships.  PeopleCount is an
opportunity to do that. With it, we'll actually work together to design how
we work together.  We’ll begin with the relationships which a
well-functioning democracy requires but are currently impossible.
-r


On Jan 31, 2020, at 6:26 PM, Paola Di Maio <paoladimaio10 at gmail.com> wrote:

Rand

Just for the record, in relation to the congratulations was referring to
https://www.wsbtv.com/news/trending/qassem-soleimani-us-forces-kill-top-iranian-intelligence-commander-what-we-know-now/NYFMVT3AGBGTDNI7YRCNTXYPWY/

By: Cox Media Group National Content Desk
Updated: January 9, 2020 - 6:10 PM
*WASHINGTON — *The House passed a measure Thursday aimed at limiting
President Donald Trump’s ability to take military action against Iran.


A mob harassed you?  Or do you mean ads?
>
Information which is privy to the legitimate state is appropriated and used
in non legitimate ways.  There is legitimate system (the one operated by
people sitting on chairs and making open debates, agreeing on laws etc)
then there is an illegitimate (thug) system which does the contrary of what
the legitimate system says, but then hides the evidence, So ultimately the
evidence is fabricated or manipulated to show that  the democratic process
is in place, but happens on the floor is much different. Just the data and
documentation are used/maniupated in such a way that it shows everything
was done by the book.  I ve been studying this for decades, now I have got
the model
working :-)

Regarding the ITV journalist who was taken down the moment his report
swayed from the BBC democratic regime version of the facts. was executed by
a military platoon
The official line is that there was confusion and he was killed as the
result of a complex situtation, but the reality is that he was executed by
a professional gunman, who does not respond to the legal system, who was
just executing orders who is paid for by taxpayers money, who think the
country is run by a democratic institution and by really nice people
sitting in congress. This is unfortunately not the case.

My problem with these general, ambiguous references is that not being
> specific, we can’t really tell if they can be remedied.
>
I was pointing to the dichotomy between what we perceive is the real world
(that the US is a democratic country) and the possibility that the US is
country run by thugs who operate outside the legal system and are really
good at fobbing everyone off. The US is also managing to keep Julian
Assange in prison in the UK< although he has not broken any UK laws, and
has committed no crime. This deviated system of outlaws uses the law (the
judicial system in the case of Assange) to do illegal things.  Julian is
being held in prison against the UK law which is specially designed to
guarantee individual freedoms. Isnt this totally perverse?
Thats is as specific as I can get.


>   Yes, modern times have proven that free and somewhat fair elections are
> not sufficient for creating a stable, functioning democracy.
>
> I think this has been going on throughout history

>  The wealthy and powerful are more adept at organizing themselves,
> adapting to, and leveraging the political system than individual citizens.
>
> I would not slice it like that. Its more the parasites who via flattery
influence and pollute the minds of wealth owners by misinforming them so
that they can syphon resources out of them. There may be  decent
intelligent generous and kind wealthy people out there, but they tend to be
controlled and restrained by regimes, or social norms,  or by the thugs who
fob everyone off with their miserable lies and misrepresentation of the
facts-


>  When citizens organize into large enough groups (like parties), these
> groups are then infiltrated and subverted, while the group leadership has
> neither the bandwidth, brains or bucks to effectively resist.
>
> often true

>
> I suggest giving up.
>
> or maybe focus on the struggle at more personal level. we as societies may
be failing
but as individuals can we live by our values? I believe that if each of us
can implement a value system in their lives, maybe the overall collective
responsible consciousness can emerge strong enough to counter the lack of
honesty of political institutions

What’s needed is a new political structure that allows citizens to organize
> effectively, but not into groups.
>
there must be better ways,

> I’ve designed it, see http://bit.ly/peoplecount-guide, but it’s a bit
> beyond my ability to singlehandedly create and I have no team.
>
really great to see, I hope that
Assuming that what you have created work, or that other new models of
governance may work. it is only when people reach the same level of
consciousness as yours that they may seek to adopt or contribute to the
evolution of the model.
The problem for me lies with the consciousness

>
> It’s not a very big undertaking.  What it does is simply create a new
> foundation, a new political communication system in which real
> accountability occurs naturally and is rewarded.
>
Yes, but until we as individuals remain 'deluded' or our knowledge, speech
is imperfect and limited,  we ll continue to struggle against our limited
cognition
I d say that until we continue to have the same problems throughout history
because we never cracked our own limitations/obscurations as individuals


>  Most people don’t even have a definition of accountability, we think it’s
> an "ability" but it’s not.  It’s a relationship with defined roles carried
> out through communication.  See:  http://j.mp/peoplecount-how
>

we have governments, we have laws, we have law enforcement agencies
what happens when government and law enforcement agencies
operate illegally (pursuing illegal goals using illegal means)  by
perverting the course of justice?  This is the case here, I am afraid

It's like the folks who will come and rob you, beat you up, then go to the
police to tell that you robbed them, then the police arrests you, you are
jailed fined and scarred for life while the newspapers will tell the story
of how the thug is the hero. and everyone believes what is in the
newspapers, right?
This is the case here.

>
> Once you understand accountability, it’s pretty easy to see that a simple
> system could deliver the basics:  http://bit.ly/pc-nuts-bolts
>
> yes, very easy, until someone is fabricating the data, the documetns and
manipulating
the system to show that what they did is compliant, while in reality it is
not.

Of course, that’s the absolute minimum MVP (minimum viable product.)  It
> raises a whole new set of questions, but there are good answers.  It
> becomes a new paradigm and then much more is possible.  There’s even a
> theoretical basis for it based on complex adaptive systems, but that’s
> immaterial at this point (perhaps someone will make a TED talk someday…)
>
:-)

>
> But please give up hope.  Hope seems to be mainly an excuse to avoid both
> the outside-the-box thinking that’s needed as well as to avoid the work...
> -r
>
>
> On Jan 30, 2020, at 3:53 PM, Paola Di Maio <paoladimaio10 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Hi Rand
> Yes,  i was defnitely generalizing -  the post I responded to was also
> kind in that tone
>
> What I intended is not like  the example you gave in California , What I
> intend is
> that democratically elected governments should be representative of the
> people, represent  and protect the citizen's interests,but the are not.
> I have come to this realization in recent years only, that what is on
> paper (constitution, legal statutes etc) does not correspond to truth at
> all.
> For examples I have no objections if some government want to know my
> address or ID, because I have nothing to hide. But when the government
> instigates the mob
> to  harras me  so that I then have no other choice than to seek the help
> of the government (or the law, or a legal foundation, or the cops) to
> defend myself, is perverse and surely must be illegal? It is also hard to
> prove in court, that the gangsters who have been robbing me were informed
> about 'my every move; by
> the same regime to whom I gave my whereabouts for legal reason.
>
> Governments obtain information 'legally'then give it to gangsters to get
> dirty business done. so that they can then show that they can intervene and
> rectify the problem. I would not have believed it possible, but I worked on
> it.
> People intercept 'my every move to counter it' is not legal.
> But their excuse for surveillance is that they want to protect the
> citizen. In the reality
> they want to mob the citizen. That is the absurd reality, and not
> legitimate way government  agencies should operate.
>
> Regarding the cryptoanarchy, I have definitely seen a lot of
> cryptoanarchists
> being puppets to the secret state. I cant make names because they would
> definitely be at my door. since they know my every move. :-)
> By masses I intended the scores of people who are scouted by movements by
> leveraging some utopic ideals and then manipulated to commit gangster acts
> under the protection of the deviated 'democratic institution'
>
> Sorry this is a bit of a vague rant, I just wanted to comment on the fact
> that there is nothing wrong in being open about one's whereabouts. the
> problem is how someone perverse who have access to it use it for a purpose
> different and opposite from the purpose the data is shared.  And that
> cryptoanarchy maybe not be anarchy after all
>
> P
>
> On Fri, Jan 31, 2020 at 1:06 AM Rand Strauss <Rand at peoplecount.org> wrote:
>
>> 1. democratically elected governments, and law enforcement agencies, as
>> legitimate entiteis, *should  *protect citizens freedoms
>> and should protect them from surveillance. but they don’t.
>>
>>
>> So you say.  But many people haven’t said so yet, through their
>> governments.  Yes, some call for this, but not enough to make new laws in
>> some countries.
>>
>> instead, government and law enforcement agencies operate outside the law,
>> and work against legitimacy itself.
>>
>>
>> This is a generalization and as such, inaccurate.  Governments here in
>> California sell information to help their budgets.  It’s distasteful, but
>> not yet against the law.
>>
>> 2.  cryptoanarchy is a device to fool the younger generations and enrol
>> them into crypto culture then manipulate them. I am afraid secret states
>> and deviated governments are behind, and part of, the cryptomovement, that
>> s another way to steer the masses. together with disinformation.
>> manipulation of facts and other tacticts
>>
>>
>> This is interesting, but just an assertion, and another generalization.
>> How are some being manipulated? And what are the stats- how many of the
>> "masses" are being enrolled in the cryptomovement?  It sounds like you’re
>> saying using Brave means one is being manipulated.  How so?
>>
>> -r
>>
>> Now burn me :-)
>>
>> PDM
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 9:56 AM grarpamp <grarpamp at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> > Be Brave, your browser won't explode.
>>>
>>> > Am also curious as to why Cloudflare hates Tor.
>>>
>>> Search CF CIA op, haters need you and the masses on clearnet so
>>> they can surveil, predict, see, and counter your every move in realtime,
>>> not least of which being your political activism vote. Better to wake up,
>>> rise, build and route around, thus dispense with them all forevermore.
>>>
>>> Governments hate cryptoanarchy [tor etc], not because it's a threat
>>> to you, but because it's a threat to them. To them, blocking tor,
>>> crypto[currency], comms tech, free speech, etc is just a survival
>>> self-defense move against the evolution of world of now connected
>>> peoples waking they don't need them anymore to get good things done.
>>>
>>> Why beg them to pocket half of what they steal from you for roads, why
>>> advocate
>>> they digital spy store sell your gps travels odometer rfid facial
>>> register pay scheme...
>>> when you can now already today anon smash that cryptocoin donate
>>> crowdfund button on the QR code posted every kilometer by the local
>>> communities and or private maintainers. It's that simple, that freedom.
>>>
>>> Wake up. Build Braver. Educate not to create/follow old fake
>>> authority, not to "vote"
>>> yourselves politik whim force demand over free peoples who have done
>>> nothing,
>>> as that struct will always be abused... but on personal
>>> responsibility, non-agression,
>>> freedom respecting interactions importance coming and building together,
>>> charity, and more.
>>>
>>> Liberating beyond the limits of continually repeating the fail of
>>> legacy structures,
>>> into actual freedom, requires Bravery, indeed. You have it, find it
>>> within, and use it.
>>>
>>> --
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>>
>> --
>> Liberationtech is public & archives are searchable from any major
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>>
>>
>
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