[liberationtech] Interesting things

[Rand Strauss]

> > Just for the record, in relation to the congratulations was referring to
> > The House passed a measure Thursday aimed at limiting President Donald Trump’s ability to take military action against Iran

Thanks for the clarification.  We’ll see if the Senate passes it with enough votes to withstand a Presidential veto (sigh)...

> > ... ITV journalist who was taken down the moment his report swayed from the BBC democratic regime version of the facts. was executed by a military platoon 

in 2003/4, Terry Lloyd and Fred Nerac?  2015, Alison Parker?

> >... dichotomy between what we perceive is the real world (that the US is a democratic country) and the possibility that the US is country run by thugs who operate outside the legal system and are really good at fobbing everyone off. ...Assange in prison...
> Thats is as specific as I can get.

It’s a bit black or white, and cynical.  There’s also the fear of seeming soft or making enemies, such as by calling off the hunt for Assange.  The extreme views usually depend on a host of ambiguous assumptions.  It’s like believing in God and/or the Devil.  There are plenty of pedestrian reasons for both our problems and the status quo that persists them.

>> > >  Yes, modern times have proven that free and somewhat fair elections are not sufficient for creating a stable, functioning democracy.
> 
> > I think this has been going on throughout history 

Yes, but earlier in history, it could have been due to slow and missing communication systems.
Modern times have proven it.

>> > > The wealthy and powerful are more adept at organizing themselves, adapting to, and leveraging the political system than individual citizens. 
> 
> > I would not slice it like that. Its more the parasites who via flattery influence and pollute the minds of wealth owners by misinforming them so that they can syphon resources out of them. 

The influence and "pollution" and thugs certainly exist. But it wouldn’t matter much if citizens were as effective at organizing, adapting to, and leveraging the political system.  These take time and resources. The problem isn’t the thugs, nor is it him combined with greedy backers and angry supporters.  It’s thugs, plus a society so chaotic and people so out of control that they back thugs to handle their insecurity or readily turn to anger.  I propose a system that’s less chaotic and people feel more in control.  Plus it’ll have natural checks for the proposals of thugs.

> > ...decent intelligent generous and kind wealthy people ... controlled and restrained by regimes, or social norms…

Agreed.

> > > I suggest giving up.
> 
> > or maybe focus on the struggle at more personal level. ... if each of us can implement a value system in their lives, maybe the overall collective responsible consciousness can emerge strong enough to counter the lack of honesty of political institutions

Maybe, but there’s no evidence.  Why would it emerge, except extremely slowly?  Do we have the time?

> > > What’s needed is a new political structure that allows citizens to organize effectively, but not into groups.
> > there must be better ways,  
> > > I’ve designed it, see http://bit.ly/peoplecount-guide <http://bit.ly/peoplecount-guide>, ...
> > really great to see
> > Assuming that … or other new models of governance may work.
> > it is only when people reach the same level of consciousness as yours ...

I think that’s a myth.  True, the idea can’t take off, as an idea, w/o similar consciousness, but implemented is different.  The idea of Facebook was around for a while, but never took off. The reality was quite different.  People behaved in new ways once new avenues of communication existed.

> > The problem for me lies with the consciousness
> 
> > >... a new political communication system in which real accountability occurs naturally and is rewarded. 

> > Yes, but until we as individuals remain 'deluded' or our knowledge,speech is imperfect and limited,  we ll continue to struggle against our limited cognition.  I'd say that until we continue to have the same problems throughout history because we never cracked our own limitations/obscurations as individuals

To me, that’s a (no offense) cheap/lazy justification.  People do what seems appropriate.  Yes, given manipulation of media, anger and defensiveness seem appropriate- the situation we’re in.  But at the same time, we’ve come to that from a system where all that’s really asked of us is voting for personalities.  There’s no call for "higher consciousness."

Having a foundation purpose-built to pull for an expansion of consciousness is a game changer.
I don’t usually talk/write in those terms- it rewards citizens taking responsibility for their own governance. It rewards caring and being informed.  And it bestows power on individuals.  The current system thwarts responsibility and reward apathy and ignorance and as above, all we can do is vote.

> > > Most people don’t even have a definition of accountability, we think it’s an "ability" but it’s not.  It’s a relationship with defined roles carried out through communication.  See:  http://j.mp/peoplecount-how <http://j.mp/peoplecount-how>
> 
> > we have governments, we have laws, we have law enforcement agencies
> > what happens when government and law enforcement agencies operate illegally (pursuing illegal goals using illegal means)  by perverting the course of justice?  This is the case here, I am afraid

Yes, barely-accountable governments and their agencies have made a world of difference, but not enough. They drift into trouble.
You ignored the influence of real accountability.  The government and agencies we have are like classrooms where the teacher comes in once a day.  Or a worker who reports in once a year.  We KNOW it doesn’t work.

> > It's like the folks who will come and rob you, beat you up, then go to the police to tell that you robbed them, then the police arrests you, you are jailed fined and scarred for life while the newspapers will tell the story of how the thug is the hero. and everyone believes what is in the newspapers, right?
> This is the case here.

That seems to be an extreme comparison- a worry about something that very, very rarely happens.  Really, how many people does it happen to?  While it occasionally happens, and it is always possible, it’s certainly not a foregone conclusion.  To me, it looks like fixating on a worst-case analogy.

> > > Once you understand accountability, it’s pretty easy to see that a simple system could deliver the basics:  http://bit.ly/pc-nuts-bolts <http://bit.ly/pc-nuts-bolts>
> 
> > yes, very easy, until someone is fabricating the data, the documetns and manipulating 
> the system to show that what they did is compliant, while in reality it is not.

You’re arguing not that forces will oppose it, but that they’ll win- cynicism. You’re arguing that no checks and safeguards can be sufficient, so we shouldn’t try- resignation.  That’s not analysis.  I completely agree with the danger.  People will adapt to any system.  What if it were easy to grapple productively with new dangers?

Cynicism and resignation are ways the status quo preserves itself.  Did you choose this attitude?  
Above you complained about wealthy people who were:  "controlled and restrained by regimes, or social norms"
Aren’t you succumbing to this?  This whole project began when I saw that was exactly what had happened to me- the status quo had shaped my attitude into one that adapted to not productively opposing the system.  Sure, I opposed it by complaining, but that’s mostly a way to accept the status quo.

Worse, there’s a very real human reaction of making others wrong when we feel that we’re being dominated, when we feel we’re losing. We do this to avoid responsibility- both to avoid the nagging fear that we’re insufficient, as well as the nagging guilt that we’re culpable.  That was part of my attitude- that others were wrong and it wasn’t my fault.  Blaming others and fighting others is an integral part of the status quo, whether it’s Dems vs Repubs, Libs vs Cons, morally good vs bad, or consciously evolved vs primitives.

Consider your thoughts from above about:
 
> > if each of us can implement a value system... maybe the overall collective responsible consciousness can emerge strong enough)

It sounds like you’re making others wrong, that their value system isn’t enough.

I don’t see anyone else with a decent proposal, and when I’ve thought at length (months, then years) about the ramifications, and planned strategies to handle consequences, it seems like it has excellent chances.  Yes, it’s not magic. Chaos with all its new permutations will present new, unimagined challenges on any new foundation. And all the old human foibles will still be with us.  But it’ll allow us to get over our existing problems- they are mired in an era where democracy is unreliable- citizens can’t wield their power so others easily pick it up.

But I urge you to only to give up on the status quo, not on unknown possibilities.  Above you said:

> > we ll continue to struggle against our limited cognition

The only problem with limited cognition is not admitting it, especially when reality bites. 3 sure signs of being bitten are resignation, cynicism and depending on a miracle.  The remedy for a limit begins with admitting it.  Seeing it naturally leads to the possibility of something beyond that, and an opportunity for new thinking. Then those of us who can need to do the new thinking.

> > ...we continue to have the same problems ... because we never cracked our own limitations/obscurations as individuals

Or, maybe this is a red herring.  The only time we spend as individuals is when we’re in our heads, and even then, we’re really products of society contemplating alone. We're reciting to ourselves things that society has taught us, or taught us to react to.  We’re all cogs in an extensive network of systems and relationships.  What if honing our lives as individuals is something that we’ve been taught and been rewarded for?  We’ve been inundated with Moses, Buddha, Jesus, Mohammed, Gandhi and many more.  We learn to be proud of our grades and degrees and income and good works.  We revere America’s founders, when they’re actual focus was a way for us to live together.

Maybe the problem is that we’ve never risen to the challenge of being responsible for those systems and relationships.  PeopleCount is an opportunity to do that. With it, we'll actually work together to design how we work together.  We’ll begin with the relationships which a well-functioning democracy requires but are currently impossible.
-r


> On Jan 31, 2020, at 6:26 PM, Paola Di Maio <paoladimaio10 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Rand
> 
> Just for the record, in relation to the congratulations was referring to
> https://www.wsbtv.com/news/trending/qassem-soleimani-us-forces-kill-top-iranian-intelligence-commander-what-we-know-now/NYFMVT3AGBGTDNI7YRCNTXYPWY/ <https://www.wsbtv.com/news/trending/qassem-soleimani-us-forces-kill-top-iranian-intelligence-commander-what-we-know-now/NYFMVT3AGBGTDNI7YRCNTXYPWY/>  
> By: Cox Media Group National Content Desk
> Updated: January 9, 2020 - 6:10 PM
> WASHINGTON — The House passed a measure Thursday aimed at limiting President Donald Trump’s ability to take military action against Iran.
> 
> 
> A mob harassed you?  Or do you mean ads?
> Information which is privy to the legitimate state is appropriated and used in non legitimate ways.  There is legitimate system (the one operated by people sitting on chairs and making open debates, agreeing on laws etc) then there is an illegitimate (thug) system which does the contrary of what the legitimate system says, but then hides the evidence, So ultimately the evidence is fabricated or manipulated to show that  the democratic process is in place, but happens on the floor is much different. Just the data and documentation are used/maniupated in such a way that it shows everything was done by the book.  I ve been studying this for decades, now I have got the model 
> working :-)
> 
> Regarding the ITV journalist who was taken down the moment his report swayed from the BBC democratic regime version of the facts. was executed by a military platoon 
> The official line is that there was confusion and he was killed as the result of a complex situtation, but the reality is that he was executed by a professional gunman, who does not respond to the legal system, who was just executing orders who is paid for by taxpayers money, who think the country is run by a democratic institution and by really nice people sitting in congress. This is unfortunately not the case.
> 
> My problem with these general, ambiguous references is that not being specific, we can’t really tell if they can be remedied.  
> I was pointing to the dichotomy between what we perceive is the real world (that the US is a democratic country) and the possibility that the US is country run by thugs who operate outside the legal system and are really good at fobbing everyone off. The US is also managing to keep Julian Assange in prison in the UK< although he has not broken any UK laws, and has committed no crime. This deviated system of outlaws uses the law (the judicial system in the case of Assange) to do illegal things.  Julian is being held in prison against the UK law which is specially designed to guarantee individual freedoms. Isnt this totally perverse?
> Thats is as specific as I can get.
>  
>>   Yes, modern times have proven that free and somewhat fair elections are not sufficient for creating a stable, functioning democracy.
> 
> I think this has been going on throughout history 
>>  The wealthy and powerful are more adept at organizing themselves, adapting to, and leveraging the political system than individual citizens.
> 
> I would not slice it like that. Its more the parasites who via flattery influence and pollute the minds of wealth owners by misinforming them so that they can syphon resources out of them. There may be  decent  intelligent generous and kind wealthy people out there, but they tend to be controlled and restrained by regimes, or social norms,  or by the thugs who fob everyone off with their miserable lies and misrepresentation of the facts-
>  
>>  When citizens organize into large enough groups (like parties), these groups are then infiltrated and subverted, while the group leadership has neither the bandwidth, brains or bucks to effectively resist.
> 
> often true 
> 
> I suggest giving up.
> 
> or maybe focus on the struggle at more personal level. we as societies may be failing
> but as individuals can we live by our values? I believe that if each of us can implement a value system in their lives, maybe the overall collective responsible consciousness can emerge strong enough to counter the lack of honesty of political institutions
> 
> What’s needed is a new political structure that allows citizens to organize effectively, but not into groups.
> there must be better ways,  
> I’ve designed it, see http://bit.ly/peoplecount-guide <http://bit.ly/peoplecount-guide>, but it’s a bit beyond my ability to singlehandedly create and I have no team.
> really great to see, I hope that   
> Assuming that what you have created work, or that other new models of governance may work. it is only when people reach the same level of consciousness as yours that they may seek to adopt or contribute to the evolution of the model.
> The problem for me lies with the consciousness
> 
> It’s not a very big undertaking.  What it does is simply create a new foundation, a new political communication system in which real accountability occurs naturally and is rewarded.
> Yes, but until we as individuals remain 'deluded' or our knowledge, speech 
> is imperfect and limited,  we ll continue to struggle against our limited cognition
> I d say that until we continue to have the same problems throughout history because we never cracked our own limitations/obscurations as individuals
>  
>  Most people don’t even have a definition of accountability, we think it’s an "ability" but it’s not.  It’s a relationship with defined roles carried out through communication.  See:  http://j.mp/peoplecount-how <http://j.mp/peoplecount-how>
> 
> we have governments, we have laws, we have law enforcement agencies
> what happens when government and law enforcement agencies 
> operate illegally (pursuing illegal goals using illegal means)  by perverting the course of justice?  This is the case here, I am afraid
> 
> It's like the folks who will come and rob you, beat you up, then go to the police to tell that you robbed them, then the police arrests you, you are jailed fined and scarred for life while the newspapers will tell the story of how the thug is the hero. and everyone believes what is in the newspapers, right?
> This is the case here.
> 
> Once you understand accountability, it’s pretty easy to see that a simple system could deliver the basics:  http://bit.ly/pc-nuts-bolts <http://bit.ly/pc-nuts-bolts>
> 
> yes, very easy, until someone is fabricating the data, the documetns and manipulating 
> the system to show that what they did is compliant, while in reality it is not. 
> 
> Of course, that’s the absolute minimum MVP (minimum viable product.)  It raises a whole new set of questions, but there are good answers.  It becomes a new paradigm and then much more is possible.  There’s even a theoretical basis for it based on complex adaptive systems, but that’s immaterial at this point (perhaps someone will make a TED talk someday…)
> :-) 
> 
> But please give up hope.  Hope seems to be mainly an excuse to avoid both the outside-the-box thinking that’s needed as well as to avoid the work...
> -r
> 
> 
>> On Jan 30, 2020, at 3:53 PM, Paola Di Maio <paoladimaio10 at gmail.com <mailto:paoladimaio10 at gmail.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> Hi Rand
>> Yes,  i was defnitely generalizing -  the post I responded to was also kind in that tone
>> 
>> What I intended is not like  the example you gave in California , What I intend is
>> that democratically elected governments should be representative of the people, represent  and protect the citizen's interests,but the are not.  
>> I have come to this realization in recent years only, that what is on paper (constitution, legal statutes etc) does not correspond to truth at all. 
>> For examples I have no objections if some government want to know my address or ID, because I have nothing to hide. But when the government instigates the mob
>> to  harras me  so that I then have no other choice than to seek the help of the government (or the law, or a legal foundation, or the cops) to defend myself, is perverse and surely must be illegal? It is also hard to prove in court, that the gangsters who have been robbing me were informed about 'my every move; by
>> the same regime to whom I gave my whereabouts for legal reason.
>> 
>> Governments obtain information 'legally'then give it to gangsters to get dirty business done. so that they can then show that they can intervene and rectify the problem. I would not have believed it possible, but I worked on it.  
>> People intercept 'my every move to counter it' is not legal.  
>> But their excuse for surveillance is that they want to protect the citizen. In the reality
>> they want to mob the citizen. That is the absurd reality, and not legitimate way government  agencies should operate.
>> 
>> Regarding the cryptoanarchy, I have definitely seen a lot of cryptoanarchists
>> being puppets to the secret state. I cant make names because they would definitely be at my door. since they know my every move. :-)
>> By masses I intended the scores of people who are scouted by movements by leveraging some utopic ideals and then manipulated to commit gangster acts
>> under the protection of the deviated 'democratic institution'
>> 
>> Sorry this is a bit of a vague rant, I just wanted to comment on the fact that there is nothing wrong in being open about one's whereabouts. the problem is how someone perverse who have access to it use it for a purpose different and opposite from the purpose the data is shared.  And that cryptoanarchy maybe not be anarchy after all
>> 
>> P
>> 
>> On Fri, Jan 31, 2020 at 1:06 AM Rand Strauss <Rand at peoplecount.org <mailto:Rand at peoplecount.org>> wrote:
>>> 1. democratically elected governments, and law enforcement agencies, as legitimate entiteis, should  protect citizens freedoms
>>> and should protect them from surveillance. but they don’t.
>> 
>> So you say.  But many people haven’t said so yet, through their governments.  Yes, some call for this, but not enough to make new laws in some countries.  
>> 
>>> instead, government and law enforcement agencies operate outside the law, and work against legitimacy itself.
>> 
>> This is a generalization and as such, inaccurate.  Governments here in California sell information to help their budgets.  It’s distasteful, but not yet against the law. 
>> 
>>> 2.  cryptoanarchy is a device to fool the younger generations and enrol them into crypto culture then manipulate them. I am afraid secret states and deviated governments are behind, and part of, the cryptomovement, that s another way to steer the masses. together with disinformation. manipulation of facts and other tacticts
>> 
>> This is interesting, but just an assertion, and another generalization. How are some being manipulated? And what are the stats- how many of the "masses" are being enrolled in the cryptomovement?  It sounds like you’re saying using Brave means one is being manipulated.  How so?
>> 
>> -r
>> 
>>> Now burn me :-)
>>> 
>>> PDM
>>> 
>>> On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 9:56 AM grarpamp <grarpamp at gmail.com <mailto:grarpamp at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>> > Be Brave, your browser won't explode.
>>> 
>>> > Am also curious as to why Cloudflare hates Tor.
>>> 
>>> Search CF CIA op, haters need you and the masses on clearnet so
>>> they can surveil, predict, see, and counter your every move in realtime,
>>> not least of which being your political activism vote. Better to wake up,
>>> rise, build and route around, thus dispense with them all forevermore.
>>> 
>>> Governments hate cryptoanarchy [tor etc], not because it's a threat
>>> to you, but because it's a threat to them. To them, blocking tor,
>>> crypto[currency], comms tech, free speech, etc is just a survival
>>> self-defense move against the evolution of world of now connected
>>> peoples waking they don't need them anymore to get good things done.
>>> 
>>> Why beg them to pocket half of what they steal from you for roads, why advocate
>>> they digital spy store sell your gps travels odometer rfid facial
>>> register pay scheme...
>>> when you can now already today anon smash that cryptocoin donate
>>> crowdfund button on the QR code posted every kilometer by the local
>>> communities and or private maintainers. It's that simple, that freedom.
>>> 
>>> Wake up. Build Braver. Educate not to create/follow old fake
>>> authority, not to "vote"
>>> yourselves politik whim force demand over free peoples who have done nothing,
>>> as that struct will always be abused... but on personal
>>> responsibility, non-agression,
>>> freedom respecting interactions importance coming and building together,
>>> charity, and more.
>>> 
>>> Liberating beyond the limits of continually repeating the fail of
>>> legacy structures,
>>> into actual freedom, requires Bravery, indeed. You have it, find it
>>> within, and use it.
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Liberationtech is public & archives are searchable from any major commercial search engine. Violations of list guidelines will get you moderated: https://lists.ghserv.net/mailman/listinfo/lt <https://lists.ghserv.net/mailman/listinfo/lt>. Unsubscribe, change to digest mode, or change password by emailing lt-owner at lists.liberationtech.org <mailto:lt-owner at lists.liberationtech.org>.
>>> -- 
>>> Liberationtech is public & archives are searchable from any major commercial search engine. Violations of list guidelines will get you moderated: https://lists.ghserv.net/mailman/listinfo/lt <https://lists.ghserv.net/mailman/listinfo/lt>. Unsubscribe, change to digest mode, or change password by emailing lt-owner at lists.liberationtech.org <mailto:lt-owner at lists.liberationtech.org>.
>> 
> 

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