[liberationtech] Interesting things

[Scott MacLeod]

With regard to the mention of Tor in this thread, and [LiberationTech],
this email just got rejected from the Tor email list:

Tor project people,

This just emerged on Twitter from the MIT Tech Review:

The FBI found Eric Marques by breaking the famed anonymity service Tor, and
officials won’t reveal the vulnerability they used. That has activists and
lawyers concerned.

https://www.technologyreview.com/s/615163/a-dark-web-tycoon-pleads-guilty-but-how-was-he-caught/

https://twitter.com/techreview/status/1226212530856611840?s=20

What do you think?

Re-Tweeted this here - https://twitter.com/WorldUnivAndSch .

The 'Security' wiki subject at World Univ & Sch is planned as wiki-schools
in all ~200 countries' official languages -
https://wiki.worlduniversityandschool.org/wiki/Security - with MIT OCW
courses for credit for free-to-students' online degrees (licensing and
accrediting) eventually (
https://wiki.worlduniversityandschool.org/wiki/Subjects). World Univ & Sch
is like Wikipedia in ~300 languages with MIT OCW in 4 languages.

Scott


On Sat, Feb 1, 2020 at 7:04 PM Paola Di Maio <paoladimaio10 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Rand
>
> I do not have the bw to reply to the long post, so just a few points quicly
>
>>
>>
>> It’s a bit black or white, and cynical.
>>
> I dont think it is cynical, but dont have a problem if you thinks it is
>
> Regarding conscience>consciousness> i have observed in myself and others
> that mistakes'/flaws are generally attributable to imperfect
> cognition/awareness of individuals
> (the sum of which is society)
> however again, I dont have a problem if you dont see it that way
> maybe we could call the difference in levels of awareness a limited
> viewpoint, language. or mindset, worldview or different background etc .
>
>
>>
>
> >>>>To me, that’s a (no offense) cheap/lazy justification.
> No offense, but its the contrary, It means that we have to accept our
> share of responsibility as individuals for the failures of society
>
> >>> People do what seems appropriate.
> yes, based on their knowledge/understanding of the situations
> we can only just do that. thats why I think we can improve things by
> improving our own understanding of the world
>
> >>>> There’s no call for "higher consciousness."
> I mean better understanding, problem solving ability, communication
> come with  consciousness, but maybe not the best choice of words
>
>
>
>
>>
> I believe in accoutablity , I also believe in justice, I dont believe in
> the ability of human societies to be able to upohold either, due to vast
> scale systemic problems as well as to individual limitations of cognition
> and awareness which impact the decision making. I am speaking about the
> judges who issue sentences who may have limited cognition and not
> understand for example the complexity of the case I described below, and
> end up punishing the innocent folks. History is full
>
>
> > It's like the folks who will come and rob you, beat you up, then go to
> the police to tell that you robbed them, then the police arrests you, you
> are jailed fined and scarred for life while the newspapers will tell the
> story of how the thug is the hero. and everyone believes what is in the
> newspapers, right?
>
> This is the case here.
>
>
> RS That seems to be an extreme comparison- a worry about something that
> very, very rarely happens.
>
>
> PDM  Happens every day to thousands of people, few cases are exposed even
> fewer rectified, The fact that you may not know about them does not mean
> they do not happen. I am a researcher in this field. I have facts in hand,
> and nobody to go to with this data
> showing the cases. Nobody cares.
>
> RS  Really, how many people does it happen to?  While it occasionally
> happens, and it is always possible, it’s certainly not a foregone
> conclusion.  To me, it looks like fixating on a worst-case analogy.
>
> PDM Happens a lot
>
>
>
>>
>> > yes, very easy, until someone is fabricating the data, the documetns
> and manipulating
> the system to show that what they did is compliant, while in reality it is
> not.
>
>
> RS  You’re arguing not that forces will oppose it, but that they’ll win-
> cynicism.
> PDM Experience
>
>  You’re arguing that no checks and safeguards can be sufficient, so we
> shouldn’t try- resignation.
> PDM  Not resignation, and I did not say you should not try.
>
> This is becoming too long for me - hay, thanks for the chat
> Regarding your project, I am not the best advisor how to grow a political
> movement
> but would say that you may have to work on one or multiple strategies to
> find your constituency. Maybe run for office?
>
> Have a nice weekend
>
> PDM
>
>
>
>
> Cynicism and resignation are ways the status quo preserves itself.  Did
> you choose this attitude?
> Above you complained about wealthy people who were:  "controlled and
> restrained by regimes, or social norms"
> Aren’t you succumbing to this?  This whole project began when I saw that
> was exactly what had happened to me- the status quo had shaped my attitude
> into one that adapted to not productively opposing the system.  Sure, I
> opposed it by complaining, but that’s mostly a way to accept the status quo.
>
> Worse, there’s a very real human reaction of making others wrong when we
> feel that we’re being dominated, when we feel we’re losing. We do this to
> avoid responsibility- both to avoid the nagging fear that we’re
> insufficient, as well as the nagging guilt that we’re culpable.  That was
> part of my attitude- that others were wrong and it wasn’t my fault.
> Blaming others and fighting others is an integral part of the status quo,
> whether it’s Dems vs Repubs, Libs vs Cons, morally good vs bad, or
> consciously evolved vs primitives.
>
> Consider your thoughts from above about:
>
>
> > if each of us can implement a value system... maybe the overall
> collective responsible consciousness can emerge strong enough)
>
>
> It sounds like you’re making others wrong, that their value system isn’t
> enough.
>
> I don’t see anyone else with a decent proposal, and when I’ve thought at
> length (months, then years) about the ramifications, and planned strategies
> to handle consequences, it seems like it has excellent chances.  Yes, it’s
> not magic. Chaos with all its new permutations will present new, unimagined
> challenges on any new foundation. And all the old human foibles will still
> be with us.  But it’ll allow us to get over our existing problems- they are
> mired in an era where democracy is unreliable- citizens can’t wield their
> power so others easily pick it up.
>
> But I urge you to only to give up on the status quo, not on unknown
> possibilities.  Above you said:
>
> > we ll continue to struggle against our limited cognition
>
>
> The only problem with limited cognition is not admitting it, especially
> when reality bites. 3 sure signs of being bitten are resignation, cynicism
> and depending on a miracle.  The remedy for a limit begins with admitting
> it.  Seeing it naturally leads to the possibility of something beyond that,
> and an opportunity for new thinking. Then those of us who can need to do
> the new thinking.
>
> > ...we continue to have the same problems ... because we never cracked
> our own limitations/obscurations as individuals
>
>
> Or, maybe this is a red herring.  The only time we spend as individuals is
> when we’re in our heads, and even then, we’re really products of society
> contemplating alone. We're reciting to ourselves things that society has
> taught us, or taught us to react to.  We’re all cogs in an extensive
> network of systems and relationships.  What if honing our lives as
> individuals is something that we’ve been taught and been rewarded for?
> We’ve been inundated with Moses, Buddha, Jesus, Mohammed, Gandhi and many
> more.  We learn to be proud of our grades and degrees and income and good
> works.  We revere America’s founders, when they’re actual focus was a way
> for us to live together.
>
> Maybe the problem is that we’ve never risen to the challenge of being
> responsible for those systems and relationships.  PeopleCount is an
> opportunity to do that. With it, we'll actually work together to design how
> we work together.  We’ll begin with the relationships which a
> well-functioning democracy requires but are currently impossible.
> -r
>
>
> On Jan 31, 2020, at 6:26 PM, Paola Di Maio <paoladimaio10 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Rand
>
> Just for the record, in relation to the congratulations was referring to
>
> https://www.wsbtv.com/news/trending/qassem-soleimani-us-forces-kill-top-iranian-intelligence-commander-what-we-know-now/NYFMVT3AGBGTDNI7YRCNTXYPWY/
>
> By: Cox Media Group National Content Desk
> Updated: January 9, 2020 - 6:10 PM
> *WASHINGTON — *The House passed a measure Thursday aimed at limiting
> President Donald Trump’s ability to take military action against Iran.
>
>
> A mob harassed you?  Or do you mean ads?
>>
> Information which is privy to the legitimate state is appropriated and
> used in non legitimate ways.  There is legitimate system (the one operated
> by people sitting on chairs and making open debates, agreeing on laws etc)
> then there is an illegitimate (thug) system which does the contrary of what
> the legitimate system says, but then hides the evidence, So ultimately the
> evidence is fabricated or manipulated to show that  the democratic process
> is in place, but happens on the floor is much different. Just the data and
> documentation are used/maniupated in such a way that it shows everything
> was done by the book.  I ve been studying this for decades, now I have got
> the model
> working :-)
>
> Regarding the ITV journalist who was taken down the moment his report
> swayed from the BBC democratic regime version of the facts. was executed by
> a military platoon
> The official line is that there was confusion and he was killed as the
> result of a complex situtation, but the reality is that he was executed by
> a professional gunman, who does not respond to the legal system, who was
> just executing orders who is paid for by taxpayers money, who think the
> country is run by a democratic institution and by really nice people
> sitting in congress. This is unfortunately not the case.
>
> My problem with these general, ambiguous references is that not being
>> specific, we can’t really tell if they can be remedied.
>>
> I was pointing to the dichotomy between what we perceive is the real world
> (that the US is a democratic country) and the possibility that the US is
> country run by thugs who operate outside the legal system and are really
> good at fobbing everyone off. The US is also managing to keep Julian
> Assange in prison in the UK< although he has not broken any UK laws, and
> has committed no crime. This deviated system of outlaws uses the law (the
> judicial system in the case of Assange) to do illegal things.  Julian is
> being held in prison against the UK law which is specially designed to
> guarantee individual freedoms. Isnt this totally perverse?
> Thats is as specific as I can get.
>
>
>>   Yes, modern times have proven that free and somewhat fair elections are
>> not sufficient for creating a stable, functioning democracy.
>>
>> I think this has been going on throughout history
>
>>  The wealthy and powerful are more adept at organizing themselves,
>> adapting to, and leveraging the political system than individual citizens.
>>
>> I would not slice it like that. Its more the parasites who via flattery
> influence and pollute the minds of wealth owners by misinforming them so
> that they can syphon resources out of them. There may be  decent
> intelligent generous and kind wealthy people out there, but they tend to be
> controlled and restrained by regimes, or social norms,  or by the thugs who
> fob everyone off with their miserable lies and misrepresentation of the
> facts-
>
>
>>  When citizens organize into large enough groups (like parties), these
>> groups are then infiltrated and subverted, while the group leadership has
>> neither the bandwidth, brains or bucks to effectively resist.
>>
>> often true
>
>>
>> I suggest giving up.
>>
>> or maybe focus on the struggle at more personal level. we as societies
> may be failing
> but as individuals can we live by our values? I believe that if each of us
> can implement a value system in their lives, maybe the overall collective
> responsible consciousness can emerge strong enough to counter the lack of
> honesty of political institutions
>
> What’s needed is a new political structure that allows citizens to
>> organize effectively, but not into groups.
>>
> there must be better ways,
>
>> I’ve designed it, see http://bit.ly/peoplecount-guide, but it’s a bit
>> beyond my ability to singlehandedly create and I have no team.
>>
> really great to see, I hope that
> Assuming that what you have created work, or that other new models of
> governance may work. it is only when people reach the same level of
> consciousness as yours that they may seek to adopt or contribute to the
> evolution of the model.
> The problem for me lies with the consciousness
>
>>
>> It’s not a very big undertaking.  What it does is simply create a new
>> foundation, a new political communication system in which real
>> accountability occurs naturally and is rewarded.
>>
> Yes, but until we as individuals remain 'deluded' or our knowledge, speech
> is imperfect and limited,  we ll continue to struggle against our limited
> cognition
> I d say that until we continue to have the same problems throughout
> history because we never cracked our own limitations/obscurations as
> individuals
>
>
>>  Most people don’t even have a definition of accountability, we think
>> it’s an "ability" but it’s not.  It’s a relationship with defined roles
>> carried out through communication.  See:  http://j.mp/peoplecount-how
>>
>
> we have governments, we have laws, we have law enforcement agencies
> what happens when government and law enforcement agencies
> operate illegally (pursuing illegal goals using illegal means)  by
> perverting the course of justice?  This is the case here, I am afraid
>
> It's like the folks who will come and rob you, beat you up, then go to the
> police to tell that you robbed them, then the police arrests you, you are
> jailed fined and scarred for life while the newspapers will tell the story
> of how the thug is the hero. and everyone believes what is in the
> newspapers, right?
> This is the case here.
>
>>
>> Once you understand accountability, it’s pretty easy to see that a simple
>> system could deliver the basics:  http://bit.ly/pc-nuts-bolts
>>
>> yes, very easy, until someone is fabricating the data, the documetns and
> manipulating
> the system to show that what they did is compliant, while in reality it is
> not.
>
> Of course, that’s the absolute minimum MVP (minimum viable product.)  It
>> raises a whole new set of questions, but there are good answers.  It
>> becomes a new paradigm and then much more is possible.  There’s even a
>> theoretical basis for it based on complex adaptive systems, but that’s
>> immaterial at this point (perhaps someone will make a TED talk someday…)
>>
> :-)
>
>>
>> But please give up hope.  Hope seems to be mainly an excuse to avoid both
>> the outside-the-box thinking that’s needed as well as to avoid the work...
>> -r
>>
>>
>> On Jan 30, 2020, at 3:53 PM, Paola Di Maio <paoladimaio10 at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Rand
>> Yes,  i was defnitely generalizing -  the post I responded to was also
>> kind in that tone
>>
>> What I intended is not like  the example you gave in California , What I
>> intend is
>> that democratically elected governments should be representative of the
>> people, represent  and protect the citizen's interests,but the are not.
>> I have come to this realization in recent years only, that what is on
>> paper (constitution, legal statutes etc) does not correspond to truth at
>> all.
>> For examples I have no objections if some government want to know my
>> address or ID, because I have nothing to hide. But when the government
>> instigates the mob
>> to  harras me  so that I then have no other choice than to seek the help
>> of the government (or the law, or a legal foundation, or the cops) to
>> defend myself, is perverse and surely must be illegal? It is also hard to
>> prove in court, that the gangsters who have been robbing me were informed
>> about 'my every move; by
>> the same regime to whom I gave my whereabouts for legal reason.
>>
>> Governments obtain information 'legally'then give it to gangsters to get
>> dirty business done. so that they can then show that they can intervene and
>> rectify the problem. I would not have believed it possible, but I worked on
>> it.
>> People intercept 'my every move to counter it' is not legal.
>> But their excuse for surveillance is that they want to protect the
>> citizen. In the reality
>> they want to mob the citizen. That is the absurd reality, and not
>> legitimate way government  agencies should operate.
>>
>> Regarding the cryptoanarchy, I have definitely seen a lot of
>> cryptoanarchists
>> being puppets to the secret state. I cant make names because they would
>> definitely be at my door. since they know my every move. :-)
>> By masses I intended the scores of people who are scouted by movements by
>> leveraging some utopic ideals and then manipulated to commit gangster acts
>> under the protection of the deviated 'democratic institution'
>>
>> Sorry this is a bit of a vague rant, I just wanted to comment on the fact
>> that there is nothing wrong in being open about one's whereabouts. the
>> problem is how someone perverse who have access to it use it for a purpose
>> different and opposite from the purpose the data is shared.  And that
>> cryptoanarchy maybe not be anarchy after all
>>
>> P
>>
>> On Fri, Jan 31, 2020 at 1:06 AM Rand Strauss <Rand at peoplecount.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> 1. democratically elected governments, and law enforcement agencies, as
>>> legitimate entiteis, *should  *protect citizens freedoms
>>> and should protect them from surveillance. but they don’t.
>>>
>>>
>>> So you say.  But many people haven’t said so yet, through their
>>> governments.  Yes, some call for this, but not enough to make new laws in
>>> some countries.
>>>
>>> instead, government and law enforcement agencies operate outside the
>>> law, and work against legitimacy itself.
>>>
>>>
>>> This is a generalization and as such, inaccurate.  Governments here in
>>> California sell information to help their budgets.  It’s distasteful, but
>>> not yet against the law.
>>>
>>> 2.  cryptoanarchy is a device to fool the younger generations and enrol
>>> them into crypto culture then manipulate them. I am afraid secret states
>>> and deviated governments are behind, and part of, the cryptomovement, that
>>> s another way to steer the masses. together with disinformation.
>>> manipulation of facts and other tacticts
>>>
>>>
>>> This is interesting, but just an assertion, and another generalization.
>>> How are some being manipulated? And what are the stats- how many of the
>>> "masses" are being enrolled in the cryptomovement?  It sounds like you’re
>>> saying using Brave means one is being manipulated.  How so?
>>>
>>> -r
>>>
>>> Now burn me :-)
>>>
>>> PDM
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 9:56 AM grarpamp <grarpamp at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> > Be Brave, your browser won't explode.
>>>>
>>>> > Am also curious as to why Cloudflare hates Tor.
>>>>
>>>> Search CF CIA op, haters need you and the masses on clearnet so
>>>> they can surveil, predict, see, and counter your every move in realtime,
>>>> not least of which being your political activism vote. Better to wake
>>>> up,
>>>> rise, build and route around, thus dispense with them all forevermore.
>>>>
>>>> Governments hate cryptoanarchy [tor etc], not because it's a threat
>>>> to you, but because it's a threat to them. To them, blocking tor,
>>>> crypto[currency], comms tech, free speech, etc is just a survival
>>>> self-defense move against the evolution of world of now connected
>>>> peoples waking they don't need them anymore to get good things done.
>>>>
>>>> Why beg them to pocket half of what they steal from you for roads, why
>>>> advocate
>>>> they digital spy store sell your gps travels odometer rfid facial
>>>> register pay scheme...
>>>> when you can now already today anon smash that cryptocoin donate
>>>> crowdfund button on the QR code posted every kilometer by the local
>>>> communities and or private maintainers. It's that simple, that freedom.
>>>>
>>>> Wake up. Build Braver. Educate not to create/follow old fake
>>>> authority, not to "vote"
>>>> yourselves politik whim force demand over free peoples who have done
>>>> nothing,
>>>> as that struct will always be abused... but on personal
>>>> responsibility, non-agression,
>>>> freedom respecting interactions importance coming and building together,
>>>> charity, and more.
>>>>
>>>> Liberating beyond the limits of continually repeating the fail of
>>>> legacy structures,
>>>> into actual freedom, requires Bravery, indeed. You have it, find it
>>>> within, and use it.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Liberationtech is public & archives are searchable from any major
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>>>> moderated: https://lists.ghserv.net/mailman/listinfo/lt. Unsubscribe,
>>>> change to digest mode, or change password by emailing
>>>> lt-owner at lists.liberationtech.org.
>>>
>>> --
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
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