[liberationtech] real Democracy in the Information age...

[hc voigt]

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yeah, right!
You are citing the democracia real movement, do u? Or is your email
subject the seoptimized catchphrase.

Peter Lindener schrieb:
> By now, most people on top of our Society's Transmutation into 
> surveillance state are beginning to realize what we might be in
> for...

can you link to some studies of how many? Over 50% really is as
astonishing as interesting. How do you define 'transmutation into
surveillance state'? In these studies you are referring to, how do they
operationalize that "beginning to realize what we might be in for"? Who
is the we here?

> ..Its pretty clear that over the longer run, corruption driven
> interests in the personal extortion market place will come to mine
> the very data base that the NSA is building up "for our safety"...

*yikes*
the freudian drive of corruption hits the personal extortion market place

i mean wow, try to google "personal extortion market place"

> Then should we expect otherwise?...

we hope for you to tell us what to expect otherwise

> In a nut shell

killer!

> ...we only have our self's to blame..

fuck culture. fuck society. fuck inequality. who cares about
dependencies or collective trauma or repression.


> Lets face it,

I'm about to, I'm beginning to see the light

> The current social script as to how Democracy is supposed to operate
> is clearly broken..

*gasp*
there's a script and it is .... SOCIAL!!!!111!!1!!eleven (or I should
type elf ... me mother language is german, sorry)


> and in the information age we should know better..

I blame myself for not being on this list since the seventies already.
the whole information age should be.


> after all, ultimately truly democratic governance is about the 
> transmission of information regarding the actual wishes of the 
> electorate into the governance process...

ok. now u lost me.
our understandig of democratic theories seems to .. ahm .. do you know
the origin of the term democracy? or the meaning of the word
"ultimately"? or "truly"?

*cough* "actual wishes of the electorate"?

"transmission of information [..] into the governance process"?


> Last I checked the information transmission rate

ah, the ITR

> associated with crowds taking to the streets and waving signs, or for
> that mater writing letters to ones congressman/woman..

stupid children, aren't they?
but what about those idiots holding comrades that are to be dragged away
by police? or the ones stumbling through tear gas clouds and those
battling paramilitia?


> is not exactly state of the art in the era of networked
> communication...

damn, I knew it!
(calling taksim radio! ¡ola indignados! shit, we should call of the
hunger strikes in our european #refugeecamps already. that's so outdates!)

> so why are we as a humanity

grand. the we again.

> collectively groveling,

had to look that one up, to grovel, but had that voice of the narrator
at the beginning of rocky horror picture show in me head from the
beginning, well before me dict did dictate me what to hear ...

> as if we know no not better..?..

mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.

> perhaps such that we maintain the existing (fairly
> dysfunctional/partially corrupt, money driven) power schema?

at this point, whatever you say.
It's clear you put a lot of thinking and propaganda know how into your
speech, so you will tell us anyway.


> The crazy thing is, we then pretend that somehow we are setting a 
> good example for the rest of the world to follow, when in reality...
> 
yeah, austria sucks. tell me something new.


> we don't even seem as a country all that interested ins safeguarding
> our own constitution's sense of moral value...

did we ever?

> We can easily do MUCH better...

I guess it's easy, you only need ...
and ..
and ..
plus ..
and of course ...
as well as ...
and ...

> starting from well founded formal understanding of the nature of
> information flow surrounding a truly democratic social decision
> process..

simple, first the understanding, then the ultimately truly democratic
governance
(don't bother with, how do "we" get to well founded formal .. ah forget
it! I anyway expected something more of .. like .. "we need ultimately
truly understanding" first and by means of that ..)

> But at this point, I ask do we as a society actually have any real

halleluja, you used the first person!
as in: you are asking who(?) yourself(?) whether we(!) actually have any
real interest?

well, no, if it's you who is asking.
> interest in exploring this possibility space?, or perhaps in the end,
> we might be just as content with the form of "democracy" where the
> elite group of privet interests with the ability to extract the best
> extortion data, and posses the most powerful (privatized) military...
> gets it way..?

it's not so much being tired of elite groups as your rhetoric that might
tire me (see, I'm not using the we here) into being content with a
dystopian reality.


> Given that the solution,

I would't call it solution. More like, fuck yourself and your
surveillance state.

> involving social network driven proxy based (trust maintained), issue
> specialized, expertise leveraged representation... that entertains a
> wide open alternative space,

you are not referring to the streets or open places in cities, right?

> that leverages the best, crowd sourced governance solutions seems
> just around the corner..

why not post the hyperlink there, will ya?


> .why don't we wake up a smell the coffee??

dream on.


> -Peter
> 
> -- Liberationtech list is public and archives are searchable on
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