[liberationtech] real Democracy in the Information age...

[Peter Lindener]

hans christian voigt-

   From your response to this thread, I sense that you must be a very
friendly, constructive person, who seeks greater levels of harmony..

Let me know if there is something else that from you perspective might feel
constructive...   I understand that many may feel there is something of
significance to say here...in my humbled state, I appreciate any sense of
enlightenment that I might glean from your sense of wisdom,... thanks for
cluing me in.

    all the best
       -peter


On Mon, Aug 5, 2013 at 3:37 PM, hc voigt <sozwiss at gmail.com> wrote:

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> yeah, right!
> You are citing the democracia real movement, do u? Or is your email
> subject the seoptimized catchphrase.
>
> Peter Lindener schrieb:
> > By now, most people on top of our Society's Transmutation into
> > surveillance state are beginning to realize what we might be in
> > for...
>
> can you link to some studies of how many? Over 50% really is as
> astonishing as interesting. How do you define 'transmutation into
> surveillance state'? In these studies you are referring to, how do they
> operationalize that "beginning to realize what we might be in for"? Who
> is the we here?
>
> > ..Its pretty clear that over the longer run, corruption driven
> > interests in the personal extortion market place will come to mine
> > the very data base that the NSA is building up "for our safety"...
>
> *yikes*
> the freudian drive of corruption hits the personal extortion market place
>
> i mean wow, try to google "personal extortion market place"
>
> > Then should we expect otherwise?...
>
> we hope for you to tell us what to expect otherwise
>
> > In a nut shell
>
> killer!
>
> > ...we only have our self's to blame..
>
> fuck culture. fuck society. fuck inequality. who cares about
> dependencies or collective trauma or repression.
>
>
> > Lets face it,
>
> I'm about to, I'm beginning to see the light
>
> > The current social script as to how Democracy is supposed to operate
> > is clearly broken..
>
> *gasp*
> there's a script and it is .... SOCIAL!!!!111!!1!!eleven (or I should
> type elf ... me mother language is german, sorry)
>
>
> > and in the information age we should know better..
>
> I blame myself for not being on this list since the seventies already.
> the whole information age should be.
>
>
> > after all, ultimately truly democratic governance is about the
> > transmission of information regarding the actual wishes of the
> > electorate into the governance process...
>
> ok. now u lost me.
> our understandig of democratic theories seems to .. ahm .. do you know
> the origin of the term democracy? or the meaning of the word
> "ultimately"? or "truly"?
>
> *cough* "actual wishes of the electorate"?
>
> "transmission of information [..] into the governance process"?
>
>
> > Last I checked the information transmission rate
>
> ah, the ITR
>
> > associated with crowds taking to the streets and waving signs, or for
> > that mater writing letters to ones congressman/woman..
>
> stupid children, aren't they?
> but what about those idiots holding comrades that are to be dragged away
> by police? or the ones stumbling through tear gas clouds and those
> battling paramilitia?
>
>
> > is not exactly state of the art in the era of networked
> > communication...
>
> damn, I knew it!
> (calling taksim radio! ¡ola indignados! shit, we should call of the
> hunger strikes in our european #refugeecamps already. that's so outdates!)
>
> > so why are we as a humanity
>
> grand. the we again.
>
> > collectively groveling,
>
> had to look that one up, to grovel, but had that voice of the narrator
> at the beginning of rocky horror picture show in me head from the
> beginning, well before me dict did dictate me what to hear ...
>
> > as if we know no not better..?..
>
> mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.
>
> > perhaps such that we maintain the existing (fairly
> > dysfunctional/partially corrupt, money driven) power schema?
>
> at this point, whatever you say.
> It's clear you put a lot of thinking and propaganda know how into your
> speech, so you will tell us anyway.
>
>
> > The crazy thing is, we then pretend that somehow we are setting a
> > good example for the rest of the world to follow, when in reality...
> >
> yeah, austria sucks. tell me something new.
>
>
> > we don't even seem as a country all that interested ins safeguarding
> > our own constitution's sense of moral value...
>
> did we ever?
>
> > We can easily do MUCH better...
>
> I guess it's easy, you only need ...
> and ..
> and ..
> plus ..
> and of course ...
> as well as ...
> and ...
>
> > starting from well founded formal understanding of the nature of
> > information flow surrounding a truly democratic social decision
> > process..
>
> simple, first the understanding, then the ultimately truly democratic
> governance
> (don't bother with, how do "we" get to well founded formal .. ah forget
> it! I anyway expected something more of .. like .. "we need ultimately
> truly understanding" first and by means of that ..)
>
> > But at this point, I ask do we as a society actually have any real
>
> halleluja, you used the first person!
> as in: you are asking who(?) yourself(?) whether we(!) actually have any
> real interest?
>
> well, no, if it's you who is asking.
> > interest in exploring this possibility space?, or perhaps in the end,
> > we might be just as content with the form of "democracy" where the
> > elite group of privet interests with the ability to extract the best
> > extortion data, and posses the most powerful (privatized) military...
> > gets it way..?
>
> it's not so much being tired of elite groups as your rhetoric that might
> tire me (see, I'm not using the we here) into being content with a
> dystopian reality.
>
>
> > Given that the solution,
>
> I would't call it solution. More like, fuck yourself and your
> surveillance state.
>
> > involving social network driven proxy based (trust maintained), issue
> > specialized, expertise leveraged representation... that entertains a
> > wide open alternative space,
>
> you are not referring to the streets or open places in cities, right?
>
> > that leverages the best, crowd sourced governance solutions seems
> > just around the corner..
>
> why not post the hyperlink there, will ya?
>
>
> > .why don't we wake up a smell the coffee??
>
> dream on.
>
>
> > -Peter
> >
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