[Bigbang-dev] Clarifying theoretical commitments going into IETF 116
Priyanka Sinha
priyanka.sinha.iitg at gmail.com
Tue Jan 31 14:19:08 CET 2023
Hi Niels and Seb,
I just wanted to mention here that my original thought process was to use
the Inverse Reinforcement Learning (Deep RL) model where the email threads
by a user were their "traces" like traffic traces by cars .. to learn their
behavior given end goals related to norms of privacy. .. At the time,
inverse RL was modeled using Generative Adversarial Networks whose loss
function was modified to function for the same..
I have to go back and see if this area has advanced.
Using textual traces for understanding people I have explored in Explaining
Outcomes of Multi-Party Dialogues using Causal Learning
https://arxiv.org/abs/2105.00944
Thanks,
Priyanka
Hi Seb,
>
> More than happy to, but it will be a bit of a literature review on social,
> technical, legal, and political norms and their interrelation. To address
> this in my own thinking I am thinking and writing a lot about ideology,
> ontology, and subjectvity to tie these things more together on a deeper
> level, because it is hard to clearly differentiate and relate them and
> understand how they produce each other and how they are translated.
>
> Best,
>
> Niels
>
> Hi Seb,
>
> In the introduction of WN you probably found how I struggled with norms,
> values, and normativity and tried to create workable seperations. I don't
> think there is a clear or clean way out of this frankly, because it all is
> messy. That is why I try to look for underlying principles, and I propose
> that if we want to research norms, we should look at the structure/patterns
> of behavior among particular actors. In other words, the way in which they
> seek to achieve success in norm-setting. If we identify those tactics and
> strategies, we will also find the contested/inscribed norms. I think that's
> easier than going directly for the norm, since it can be many things.
>
> If you want to read more about openness (and the messiness of norms), have
> a look at:
>
> Russell, Andrew L. Open Standards and the Digital Age. Cambridge
> University Press, 2014.
>
> Or also the chapter about the IETF in WN, or as article:
>
> ten Oever, Niels. ??This Is Not How We Imagined It? - Technological
> Affordances, Economic Drivers and the Internet Architecture Imaginary.? New
> Media & Society 23, no. 2 (2021).
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Niels
>
>
>
>
>
> On 30-01-2023 21:48, Sebastian Benthall wrote:
> > Thomas -- how atheoretically empiricist of you. Perhaps you are an
> anthropologist.
> >
> > Niels -- thanks, that's clarifying. Do those examples have something in
> common that qualifies them all as "norms"?
> > Does contestation work similarly across all the different categories of
> norms?
> >
> > Naturally, I'm trying to operationalize something.
> >
> > If it were me, I might stop using the term 'norm' so broadly, or reserve
> it for something specific, and use more particular terms:
> > - laws (GDPR)
> > - standards
> > ?? - and moreover, protocols,
> >
> > I don't know about transparency, openness, human rights, or
> interconnection.
> > I might use the term 'values' for these.
> > But maybe you mean something else.
> >
> > None of these are how Nissenbaum uses 'norms'.
> >
> > - S
> >
> > On Mon, Jan 30, 2023 at 7:08 PM Niels ten Oever <mail at nielstenoever.net
> <mailto:mail at nielstenoever.net>> wrote:
> >
> > A law is a norm, a standard is a norm, openness is a norm,
> transparency is a norm, human rights are norms, HTTPS is a norm,
> interconnection is a norm. etc. And many of these can be understood at the
> same time as technical, political, legal, and social norms. Therefore I am
> not sure whether finding different definitions is necessarily helpful.
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > Niels
> >
> > On 30-01-2023 17:05, Sebastian Benthall wrote:
> > > Maybe I've missed the concrete example of a norm here...
> > >
> > > On Mon, Jan 30, 2023 at 6:50 PM Thomas Streinz <tfs253 at nyu.edu
> <mailto:tfs253 at nyu.edu> <mailto:tfs253 at nyu.edu <mailto:tfs253 at nyu.edu>>>
> wrote:
> > >
> > >? ? ?Lurking on this list as usual, just a quick aside: I agree
> that CI and WN operate with different concepts of what a "norm" is and it's
> important to be aware of that. Within law, there is abundant literature on
> what a "norm" is, in particular what a "legal norm" as opposed to an
> "ethical norm" (tracking the divide between natural law and positivism).
> That said, I'm not convinced that literature is useful for your (our)
> purposes, because it's so self-referential. It's ultimately less about what
> the word "norm" means (in a particular context, let alone in the abstract)
> and more about "what's happening"?in different settings (and whether what
> Helen/Niels call "norms" is shaping what's happening). Just my two cents.
> Upwards and onwards.
> > >
> > >
> > >? ? ?On Mon, Jan 30, 2023 at 10:44 AM Niels ten Oever <
> mail at nielstenoever.net <mailto:mail at nielstenoever.net> <mailto:
> mail at nielstenoever.net <mailto:mail at nielstenoever.net>>> wrote:
> > >
> > >? ? ? ? ?Hi Seb,
> > >
> > >? ? ? ? ?More than happy to, but it will be a bit of a literature
> review on social, technical, legal, and political norms and their
> interrelation. To address this in my own thinking I am thinking and writing
> a lot about ideology, ontology, and subjectvity to tie these things more
> together on a deeper level, because it is hard to clearly differentiate and
> relate them and understand how they produce each other and how they are
> translated.
> > >
> > >? ? ? ? ?Best,
> > >
> > >? ? ? ? ?Niels
> > >
> > >? ? ? ? ?On 30-01-2023 16:39, Sebastian Benthall wrote:
> > >? ? ? ? ? > Hi Niels,
> > >? ? ? ? ? >
> > >? ? ? ? ? > I wonder if you could provide some concrete examples
> of what you mean by a norm.
> > >? ? ? ? ? >
> > >? ? ? ? ? > Cheers,
> > >? ? ? ? ? > Seb
> > >? ? ? ? ? >
> > >? ? ? ? ? > On Mon, Jan 30, 2023 at 6:34 PM Niels ten Oever <
> mail at nielstenoever.net <mailto:mail at nielstenoever.net> <mailto:
> mail at nielstenoever.net <mailto:mail at nielstenoever.net>> <mailto:
> mail at nielstenoever.net <mailto:mail at nielstenoever.net> <mailto:
> mail at nielstenoever.net <mailto:mail at nielstenoever.net>>>> wrote:
> > >? ? ? ? ? >
> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ?Hi Seb,
> > >? ? ? ? ? >
> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ?On a more theoretical note - what I am currently
> interested in is trying to identify who the actors are that collaborate on
> particular norms. In WN I have sought to interrogate the underlying norms
> per governance body. For me two interests flow from there:
> > >? ? ? ? ? >
> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ?- What are contested subnorms per body (and how to
> identify them, and the actors that propone and oppose them)
> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ?- What are contested norms among bodies (for this
> we would need cross-body analysis)
> > >? ? ? ? ? >
> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ?I would be very interested to see how much overlap
> there is across bodies and whether there are similar engagement patterns
> per company. In other words: is there a particular Cisco way of engaging in
> the IETF, 3GPP, and RIPE ? Or do they shift their approach per body? What
> can we learn from that, esp irl to Q1!
> > >? ? ? ? ? >
> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ?I think it would be very cool if we could get some
> kind of cross body comparison going.
> > >? ? ? ? ? >
> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ?Hope this helps!
> > >? ? ? ? ? >
> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ?Best,
> > >? ? ? ? ? >
> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ?Niels
> > >? ? ? ? ? >
> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ?On 25-01-2023 09:39, Sebastian Benthall wrote:
> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ? > Hello,
> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ? >
> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ? > I'm very pleased to be going to IETF 116 as a
> public interest technologist!
> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ? > I intend to so what everybody does at IETF
> meetings: ethnography!
> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ? >
> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ? > To prepare, I've been reading the seminal
> _Wired Norms: Inscription, resistance, and subversion_ (WN).
> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ? > I'm reading this keeping in mind Priyanka's
> interest in a project connecting BigBang and Contextual Integrity (CI)--
> something I am certainly interested in!
> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ? >
> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ? > I thought it might be productive to clarify
> some theoretical commitments and terminology ahead of time, since CI use
> the same terms with slightly different meanings and literature sources.
> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ? >
> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ? > What both WN and CI have in common is an
> emphasis on 'norms'.
> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ? >
> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ? > In CI, norms are always connected to a social
> context, and legitimized by the contexts purposes, the ends of agents
> within the context, and societal purposes. The norms in CI are
> informational norms, meaning they govern information flows, and especially
> flows of personal data. CI tends to see the norms as very stable -- part of
> the context as an institution and imaginary, to use the language of WN --
> but the norms sometimes change with the introduction of new technology.
> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ? >
> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ? > WN uses a less sui generic sense of 'norm'
> taken from international relations. In many ways this is a richer sense of
> norm than CI's, as it comes with a theory of norm conflict, which CI in its
> current form lacks. But it is also perhaps a vague sense of 'norm'. My
> understanding is that 'norms'in IR theory typically bind state actors,
> whereas WN considers standards and protocols as themselves 'norms'. Neither
> of these are precisely the same as the 'social norms' at work in CI. For
> example, norms abot the use of the personal data of IETF participants,
> contextualized to the IETF, would be canonical CI norms.
> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ? >
> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ? > Norm conflict theories may be a good way to
> deal with one area where CI has an acknowledged weakness, which is in its
> (lack of) understanding of context collapse.
> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ? >
> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ? > Just riffing a bit in searching of a research
> question that might be broadly appealing... whereas WN addresses the norm
> conflict between norms grounded in the private multistakeholder governance
> values of openness, innovation, etc. and norms grounded in human rights
> (perhaps, Californian ideology vs. European values, to be crude about it),
> I'd hazard a guess and add into the conflicted mix managerialist values
> (corporate) and authoritarian values (various non-Western entrants into
> IETF standarization?).
> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ? >
> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ? > Of course it is most interesting if these
> values manifest in different _standards_. But in terms of using BigBang,
> maybe what we can observe is how different actors from different
> contexts/institutions _behave_ differently within the purposefully
> "multi"--i.e. pluralized-- context of the IETF? Do they have different
> information norms? These are maybe "metanorms" with respect to the
> standards protocols, drafts, and so on.
> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ? >
> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ? > Am I hitting any marks here? What do others
> have in mind for a research frontier for BigBang?
> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ? >
> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ? > Best regards,
> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ? > Seb
> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ? >
> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ? >
> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ? >
> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ? > _______________________________________________
> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ? > Bigbang-dev mailing list
> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ? > Bigbang-dev at data-activism.net <mailto:
> Bigbang-dev at data-activism.net> <mailto:Bigbang-dev at data-activism.net
> <mailto:Bigbang-dev at data-activism.net>> <mailto:
> Bigbang-dev at data-activism.net <mailto:Bigbang-dev at data-activism.net>
> <mailto:Bigbang-dev at data-activism.net <mailto:
> Bigbang-dev at data-activism.net>>>
> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ? >
> https://lists.ghserv.net/mailman/listinfo/bigbang-dev <
> https://lists.ghserv.net/mailman/listinfo/bigbang-dev> <
> https://lists.ghserv.net/mailman/listinfo/bigbang-dev <
> https://lists.ghserv.net/mailman/listinfo/bigbang-dev>> <
> https://lists.ghserv.net/mailman/listinfo/bigbang-dev <
> https://lists.ghserv.net/mailman/listinfo/bigbang-dev> <
> https://lists.ghserv.net/mailman/listinfo/bigbang-dev <
> https://lists.ghserv.net/mailman/listinfo/bigbang-dev>>>
> > >? ? ? ? ? >
> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ?--
> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ?Niels ten Oever, PhD
> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ?Postdoctoral Researcher - Media Studies Department
> - University of Amsterdam
> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ?Affiliated Faculty - Digital Democracy Institute -
> Simon Fraser University
> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ?Non-Resident Fellow 2022-2023 - Center for
> Democracy & Technology
> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ?Associated Scholar - Centro de Tecnologia e
> Sociedade - Funda??o Get?lio Vargas
> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ?Research Fellow - Centre for Internet and Human
> Rights - European University Viadrina
> > >? ? ? ? ? >
> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ?Vice chair - Global Internet Governance Academic
> Network (GigaNet)
> > >? ? ? ? ? >
> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ?W: https://nielstenoever.net <
> https://nielstenoever.net> <https://nielstenoever.net <
> https://nielstenoever.net>> <https://nielstenoever.net <
> https://nielstenoever.net> <https://nielstenoever.net <
> https://nielstenoever.net>>>
> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ?E: mail at nielstenoever.net <mailto:
> mail at nielstenoever.net> <mailto:mail at nielstenoever.net <mailto:
> mail at nielstenoever.net>> <mailto:mail at nielstenoever.net <mailto:
> mail at nielstenoever.net> <mailto:mail at nielstenoever.net <mailto:
> mail at nielstenoever.net>>>
> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ?T: @nielstenoever
> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ?P/S/WA: +31629051853
> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ?PGP: 4254 ECD5 D4CF F6AF 8B91 0D9F EFAD 2E49 CC90
> C10C
> > >? ? ? ? ? >
> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ?Read my latest article on network ideologies and
> how 5G reshapes the internet
> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0308596122001446 <
> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0308596122001446> <
> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0308596122001446 <
> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0308596122001446>> <
> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0308596122001446 <
> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0308596122001446> <
> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0308596122001446 <
> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0308596122001446>>>
> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ?_______________________________________________
> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ?Bigbang-dev mailing list
> > >? ? ? ? ? > Bigbang-dev at data-activism.net <mailto:
> Bigbang-dev at data-activism.net> <mailto:Bigbang-dev at data-activism.net
> <mailto:Bigbang-dev at data-activism.net>> <mailto:
> Bigbang-dev at data-activism.net <mailto:Bigbang-dev at data-activism.net>
> <mailto:Bigbang-dev at data-activism.net <mailto:
> Bigbang-dev at data-activism.net>>>
> > >? ? ? ? ? > https://lists.ghserv.net/mailman/listinfo/bigbang-dev
> <https://lists.ghserv.net/mailman/listinfo/bigbang-dev> <
> https://lists.ghserv.net/mailman/listinfo/bigbang-dev <
> https://lists.ghserv.net/mailman/listinfo/bigbang-dev>> <
> https://lists.ghserv.net/mailman/listinfo/bigbang-dev <
> https://lists.ghserv.net/mailman/listinfo/bigbang-dev> <
> https://lists.ghserv.net/mailman/listinfo/bigbang-dev <
> https://lists.ghserv.net/mailman/listinfo/bigbang-dev>>>
> > >? ? ? ? ? >
> > >
> > >? ? ? ? ?--
> > >? ? ? ? ?Niels ten Oever, PhD
> > >? ? ? ? ?Postdoctoral Researcher - Media Studies Department -
> University of Amsterdam
> > >? ? ? ? ?Affiliated Faculty - Digital Democracy Institute - Simon
> Fraser University
> > >? ? ? ? ?Non-Resident Fellow 2022-2023 - Center for Democracy &
> Technology
> > >? ? ? ? ?Associated Scholar - Centro de Tecnologia e Sociedade -
> Funda??o Get?lio Vargas
> > >? ? ? ? ?Research Fellow - Centre for Internet and Human Rights -
> European University Viadrina
> > >
> > >? ? ? ? ?Vice chair - Global Internet Governance Academic Network
> (GigaNet)
> > >
> > >? ? ? ? ?W: https://nielstenoever.net <https://nielstenoever.net>
> <https://nielstenoever.net <https://nielstenoever.net>>
> > >? ? ? ? ?E: mail at nielstenoever.net <mailto:mail at nielstenoever.net>
> <mailto:mail at nielstenoever.net <mailto:mail at nielstenoever.net>>
> > >? ? ? ? ?T: @nielstenoever
> > >? ? ? ? ?P/S/WA: +31629051853
> > >? ? ? ? ?PGP: 4254 ECD5 D4CF F6AF 8B91 0D9F EFAD 2E49 CC90 C10C
> > >
> > >? ? ? ? ?Read my latest article on network ideologies and how 5G
> reshapes the internet
> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0308596122001446 <
> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0308596122001446> <
> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0308596122001446 <
> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0308596122001446>>
> > >? ? ? ? ?_______________________________________________
> > >? ? ? ? ?Bigbang-dev mailing list
> > > Bigbang-dev at data-activism.net <mailto:
> Bigbang-dev at data-activism.net> <mailto:Bigbang-dev at data-activism.net
> <mailto:Bigbang-dev at data-activism.net>>
> > > https://lists.ghserv.net/mailman/listinfo/bigbang-dev <
> https://lists.ghserv.net/mailman/listinfo/bigbang-dev> <
> https://lists.ghserv.net/mailman/listinfo/bigbang-dev <
> https://lists.ghserv.net/mailman/listinfo/bigbang-dev>>
> > >
> >
> > --
> > Niels ten Oever, PhD
> > Postdoctoral Researcher - Media Studies Department - University of
> Amsterdam
> > Affiliated Faculty - Digital Democracy Institute - Simon Fraser
> University
> > Non-Resident Fellow 2022-2023 - Center for Democracy & Technology
> > Associated Scholar - Centro de Tecnologia e Sociedade - Funda??o
> Get?lio Vargas
> > Research Fellow - Centre for Internet and Human Rights - European
> University Viadrina
> >
> > Vice chair - Global Internet Governance Academic Network (GigaNet)
> >
> > W: https://nielstenoever.net <https://nielstenoever.net>
> > E: mail at nielstenoever.net <mailto:mail at nielstenoever.net>
> > T: @nielstenoever
> > P/S/WA: +31629051853
> > PGP: 4254 ECD5 D4CF F6AF 8B91 0D9F EFAD 2E49 CC90 C10C
> >
> > Read my latest article on network ideologies and how 5G reshapes the
> internet
> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0308596122001446 <
> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0308596122001446>
> >
>
> --
> Niels ten Oever, PhD
> Postdoctoral Researcher - Media Studies Department - University of
> Amsterdam
> Affiliated Faculty - Digital Democracy Institute - Simon Fraser University
> Non-Resident Fellow 2022-2023 - Center for Democracy & Technology
> Associated Scholar - Centro de Tecnologia e Sociedade - Funda??o Get?lio
> Vargas
> Research Fellow - Centre for Internet and Human Rights - European
> University Viadrina
>
> Vice chair - Global Internet Governance Academic Network (GigaNet)
>
> W: https://nielstenoever.net
> E: mail at nielstenoever.net
> T: @nielstenoever
> P/S/WA: +31629051853
> PGP: 4254 ECD5 D4CF F6AF 8B91 0D9F EFAD 2E49 CC90 C10C
>
> Read my latest article on network ideologies and how 5G reshapes the
> internet
> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0308596122001446
>
> *******************************************
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.ghserv.net/pipermail/bigbang-dev/attachments/20230131/379f90bb/attachment-0001.htm>
More information about the Bigbang-dev
mailing list