[Bigbang-dev] Clarifying theoretical commitments going into IETF 116
Sebastian Benthall
sbenthall at gmail.com
Tue Jan 31 17:26:08 CET 2023
Niels,
Yes, yes.
Here is an example paper about norm formation as modeled in ABMs, which
include dynamics that are normally forbidden in conventional economic
modeling:
https://www.jasss.org/8/3/2.html
In the Axelrod model discussed, norms come about through contest rather
directly.
Maybe Christoph knows something about this literature.
In any case, a purely 'descriptive' project is perhaps easier to find
scientific funding for. (As opposed to fundraising from more advocacy
focused sources).
On Tue, Jan 31, 2023 at 2:48 PM Niels ten Oever <mail at nielstenoever.net>
wrote:
> Hi Seb,
>
> On 31-01-2023 12:27, Sebastian Benthall wrote:
> > Hi Niels,
> >
> > Thanks -- I think I'm following.
> > I'm right with you on the search for underlying principles.
> >
> > The reduction to behavior and agent goals and tactics makes good sense
> to me.
> > The mystery, to me, is more or less how to model structuration (Giddens)
> especially when that structuration can be due to both cooperative and
> competitive/contestative dynamics.
> >
>
> This is exactly why economic modelling of standard setting processes has
> been very limited in its generalizability. Standard setting is this weird
> process in which competitors collaborate and which sometimes succeeds. But
> it is quite unclear when success, breakdown, collaboration, and/or
> competition occur. Especially since so many variables play a role (market
> uptake, technological prowess, patents, experience in standard-setting,
> processes and procedures, sectoral participation, personal relations,
> leadership,etc).
>
> > There's actually a quite good emerging literature in using agent based
> models, or even multi-agent reinforcement learning, to study this.
> > As Priyanka mentions, it would be amazing to do that in a way that was
> calibrated to an existing data set such as we get from BigBang.
> >
>
> I find it fascinating as well, even if it is "just" descriptive and does
> not have prescriptive value.
>
> Best,
>
> Niels
>
>
> > - S
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Jan 31, 2023 at 1:54 PM Niels ten Oever <mail at nielstenoever.net
> <mailto:mail at nielstenoever.net>> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Seb,
> >
> > In the introduction of WN you probably found how I struggled with
> norms, values, and normativity and tried to create workable seperations. I
> don't think there is a clear or clean way out of this frankly, because it
> all is messy. That is why I try to look for underlying principles, and I
> propose that if we want to research norms, we should look at the
> structure/patterns of behavior among particular actors. In other words, the
> way in which they seek to achieve success in norm-setting. If we identify
> those tactics and strategies, we will also find the contested/inscribed
> norms. I think that's easier than going directly for the norm, since it can
> be many things.
> >
> > If you want to read more about openness (and the messiness of
> norms), have a look at:
> >
> > Russell, Andrew L. Open Standards and the Digital Age. Cambridge
> University Press, 2014.
> >
> > Or also the chapter about the IETF in WN, or as article:
> >
> > ten Oever, Niels. “‘This Is Not How We Imagined It’ - Technological
> Affordances, Economic Drivers and the Internet Architecture Imaginary.” New
> Media & Society 23, no. 2 (2021).
> >
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Niels
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 30-01-2023 21:48, Sebastian Benthall wrote:
> > > Thomas -- how atheoretically empiricist of you. Perhaps you are
> an anthropologist.
> > >
> > > Niels -- thanks, that's clarifying. Do those examples have
> something in common that qualifies them all as "norms"?
> > > Does contestation work similarly across all the different
> categories of norms?
> > >
> > > Naturally, I'm trying to operationalize something.
> > >
> > > If it were me, I might stop using the term 'norm' so broadly, or
> reserve it for something specific, and use more particular terms:
> > > - laws (GDPR)
> > > - standards
> > > - and moreover, protocols,
> > >
> > > I don't know about transparency, openness, human rights, or
> interconnection.
> > > I might use the term 'values' for these.
> > > But maybe you mean something else.
> > >
> > > None of these are how Nissenbaum uses 'norms'.
> > >
> > > - S
> > >
> > > On Mon, Jan 30, 2023 at 7:08 PM Niels ten Oever <
> mail at nielstenoever.net <mailto:mail at nielstenoever.net> <mailto:
> mail at nielstenoever.net <mailto:mail at nielstenoever.net>>> wrote:
> > >
> > > A law is a norm, a standard is a norm, openness is a norm,
> transparency is a norm, human rights are norms, HTTPS is a norm,
> interconnection is a norm. etc. And many of these can be understood at the
> same time as technical, political, legal, and social norms. Therefore I am
> not sure whether finding different definitions is necessarily helpful.
> > >
> > > Best,
> > >
> > > Niels
> > >
> > > On 30-01-2023 17:05, Sebastian Benthall wrote:
> > > > Maybe I've missed the concrete example of a norm here...
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, Jan 30, 2023 at 6:50 PM Thomas Streinz <
> tfs253 at nyu.edu <mailto:tfs253 at nyu.edu> <mailto:tfs253 at nyu.edu <mailto:
> tfs253 at nyu.edu>> <mailto:tfs253 at nyu.edu <mailto:tfs253 at nyu.edu> <mailto:
> tfs253 at nyu.edu <mailto:tfs253 at nyu.edu>>>> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Lurking on this list as usual, just a quick aside: I
> agree that CI and WN operate with different concepts of what a "norm" is
> and it's important to be aware of that. Within law, there is abundant
> literature on what a "norm" is, in particular what a "legal norm" as
> opposed to an "ethical norm" (tracking the divide between natural law and
> positivism). That said, I'm not convinced that literature is useful for
> your (our) purposes, because it's so self-referential. It's ultimately less
> about what the word "norm" means (in a particular context, let alone in the
> abstract) and more about "what's happening" in different settings (and
> whether what Helen/Niels call "norms" is shaping what's happening). Just my
> two cents. Upwards and onwards.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, Jan 30, 2023 at 10:44 AM Niels ten Oever <
> mail at nielstenoever.net <mailto:mail at nielstenoever.net> <mailto:
> mail at nielstenoever.net <mailto:mail at nielstenoever.net>> <mailto:
> mail at nielstenoever.net <mailto:mail at nielstenoever.net> <mailto:
> mail at nielstenoever.net <mailto:mail at nielstenoever.net>>>> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi Seb,
> > > >
> > > > More than happy to, but it will be a bit of a
> literature review on social, technical, legal, and political norms and
> their interrelation. To address this in my own thinking I am thinking and
> writing a lot about ideology, ontology, and subjectvity to tie these things
> more together on a deeper level, because it is hard to clearly
> differentiate and relate them and understand how they produce each other
> and how they are translated.
> > > >
> > > > Best,
> > > >
> > > > Niels
> > > >
> > > > On 30-01-2023 16:39, Sebastian Benthall wrote:
> > > > > Hi Niels,
> > > > >
> > > > > I wonder if you could provide some concrete
> examples of what you mean by a norm.
> > > > >
> > > > > Cheers,
> > > > > Seb
> > > > >
> > > > > On Mon, Jan 30, 2023 at 6:34 PM Niels ten Oever
> <mail at nielstenoever.net <mailto:mail at nielstenoever.net> <mailto:
> mail at nielstenoever.net <mailto:mail at nielstenoever.net>> <mailto:
> mail at nielstenoever.net <mailto:mail at nielstenoever.net> <mailto:
> mail at nielstenoever.net <mailto:mail at nielstenoever.net>>> <mailto:
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> mail at nielstenoever.net <mailto:mail at nielstenoever.net>> <mailto:
> mail at nielstenoever.net <mailto:mail at nielstenoever.net> <mailto:
> mail at nielstenoever.net <mailto:mail at nielstenoever.net>>>>> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi Seb,
> > > > >
> > > > > On a more theoretical note - what I am
> currently interested in is trying to identify who the actors are that
> collaborate on particular norms. In WN I have sought to interrogate the
> underlying norms per governance body. For me two interests flow from there:
> > > > >
> > > > > - What are contested subnorms per body (and
> how to identify them, and the actors that propone and oppose them)
> > > > > - What are contested norms among bodies
> (for this we would need cross-body analysis)
> > > > >
> > > > > I would be very interested to see how much
> overlap there is across bodies and whether there are similar engagement
> patterns per company. In other words: is there a particular Cisco way of
> engaging in the IETF, 3GPP, and RIPE ? Or do they shift their approach per
> body? What can we learn from that, esp irl to Q1!
> > > > >
> > > > > I think it would be very cool if we could
> get some kind of cross body comparison going.
> > > > >
> > > > > Hope this helps!
> > > > >
> > > > > Best,
> > > > >
> > > > > Niels
> > > > >
> > > > > On 25-01-2023 09:39, Sebastian Benthall
> wrote:
> > > > > > Hello,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'm very pleased to be going to IETF 116
> as a public interest technologist!
> > > > > > I intend to so what everybody does at
> IETF meetings: ethnography!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > To prepare, I've been reading the
> seminal _Wired Norms: Inscription, resistance, and subversion_ (WN).
> > > > > > I'm reading this keeping in mind
> Priyanka's interest in a project connecting BigBang and Contextual
> Integrity (CI)-- something I am certainly interested in!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I thought it might be productive to
> clarify some theoretical commitments and terminology ahead of time, since
> CI use the same terms with slightly different meanings and literature
> sources.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > What both WN and CI have in common is an
> emphasis on 'norms'.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In CI, norms are always connected to a
> social context, and legitimized by the contexts purposes, the ends of
> agents within the context, and societal purposes. The norms in CI are
> informational norms, meaning they govern information flows, and especially
> flows of personal data. CI tends to see the norms as very stable -- part of
> the context as an institution and imaginary, to use the language of WN --
> but the norms sometimes change with the introduction of new technology.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > WN uses a less sui generic sense of
> 'norm' taken from international relations. In many ways this is a richer
> sense of norm than CI's, as it comes with a theory of norm conflict, which
> CI in its current form lacks. But it is also perhaps a vague sense of
> 'norm'. My understanding is that 'norms'in IR theory typically bind state
> actors, whereas WN considers standards and protocols as themselves 'norms'.
> Neither of these are precisely the same as the 'social norms' at work in
> CI. For example, norms abot the use of the personal data of IETF
> participants, contextualized to the IETF, would be canonical CI norms.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Norm conflict theories may be a good way
> to deal with one area where CI has an acknowledged weakness, which is in
> its (lack of) understanding of context collapse.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Just riffing a bit in searching of a
> research question that might be broadly appealing... whereas WN addresses
> the norm conflict between norms grounded in the private multistakeholder
> governance values of openness, innovation, etc. and norms grounded in human
> rights (perhaps, Californian ideology vs. European values, to be crude
> about it), I'd hazard a guess and add into the conflicted mix managerialist
> values (corporate) and authoritarian values (various non-Western entrants
> into IETF standarization?).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Of course it is most interesting if
> these values manifest in different _standards_. But in terms of using
> BigBang, maybe what we can observe is how different actors from different
> contexts/institutions _behave_ differently within the purposefully
> "multi"--i.e. pluralized-- context of the IETF? Do they have different
> information norms? These are maybe "metanorms" with respect to the
> standards protocols, drafts, and so on.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Am I hitting any marks here? What do
> others have in mind for a research frontier for BigBang?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Best regards,
> > > > > > Seb
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
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> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Niels ten Oever, PhD
> > > > > Postdoctoral Researcher - Media Studies
> Department - University of Amsterdam
> > > > > Affiliated Faculty - Digital Democracy
> Institute - Simon Fraser University
> > > > > Non-Resident Fellow 2022-2023 - Center for
> Democracy & Technology
> > > > > Associated Scholar - Centro de Tecnologia e
> Sociedade - Fundação Getúlio Vargas
> > > > > Research Fellow - Centre for Internet and
> Human Rights - European University Viadrina
> > > > >
> > > > > Vice chair - Global Internet Governance
> Academic Network (GigaNet)
> > > > >
> > > > > W: https://nielstenoever.net <
> https://nielstenoever.net> <https://nielstenoever.net <
> https://nielstenoever.net>> <https://nielstenoever.net <
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> > > > > T: @nielstenoever
> > > > > P/S/WA: +31629051853
> > > > > PGP: 4254 ECD5 D4CF F6AF 8B91 0D9F EFAD
> 2E49 CC90 C10C
> > > > >
> > > > > Read my latest article on network
> ideologies and how 5G reshapes the internet
> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0308596122001446 <
> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0308596122001446> <
> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0308596122001446 <
> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0308596122001446>> <
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> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0308596122001446>>> <
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> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0308596122001446 <
> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0308596122001446>>
> > <https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0308596122001446
> <https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0308596122001446> <
> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0308596122001446 <
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> > > > >
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> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Niels ten Oever, PhD
> > > > Postdoctoral Researcher - Media Studies Department
> - University of Amsterdam
> > > > Affiliated Faculty - Digital Democracy Institute -
> Simon Fraser University
> > > > Non-Resident Fellow 2022-2023 - Center for
> Democracy & Technology
> > > > Associated Scholar - Centro de Tecnologia e
> Sociedade - Fundação Getúlio Vargas
> > > > Research Fellow - Centre for Internet and Human
> Rights - European University Viadrina
> > > >
> > > > Vice chair - Global Internet Governance Academic
> Network (GigaNet)
> > > >
> > > > W: https://nielstenoever.net <
> https://nielstenoever.net> <https://nielstenoever.net <
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> > > > P/S/WA: +31629051853
> > > > PGP: 4254 ECD5 D4CF F6AF 8B91 0D9F EFAD 2E49 CC90
> C10C
> > > >
> > > > Read my latest article on network ideologies and
> how 5G reshapes the internet
> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0308596122001446 <
> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0308596122001446> <
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> > > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Niels ten Oever, PhD
> > > Postdoctoral Researcher - Media Studies Department -
> University of Amsterdam
> > > Affiliated Faculty - Digital Democracy Institute - Simon
> Fraser University
> > > Non-Resident Fellow 2022-2023 - Center for Democracy &
> Technology
> > > Associated Scholar - Centro de Tecnologia e Sociedade -
> Fundação Getúlio Vargas
> > > Research Fellow - Centre for Internet and Human Rights -
> European University Viadrina
> > >
> > > Vice chair - Global Internet Governance Academic Network
> (GigaNet)
> > >
> > > W: https://nielstenoever.net <https://nielstenoever.net> <
> https://nielstenoever.net <https://nielstenoever.net>>
> > > E: mail at nielstenoever.net <mailto:mail at nielstenoever.net>
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> > > T: @nielstenoever
> > > P/S/WA: +31629051853
> > > PGP: 4254 ECD5 D4CF F6AF 8B91 0D9F EFAD 2E49 CC90 C10C
> > >
> > > Read my latest article on network ideologies and how 5G
> reshapes the internet
> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0308596122001446 <
> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0308596122001446> <
> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0308596122001446 <
> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0308596122001446>>
> > >
> >
> > --
> > Niels ten Oever, PhD
> > Postdoctoral Researcher - Media Studies Department - University of
> Amsterdam
> > Affiliated Faculty - Digital Democracy Institute - Simon Fraser
> University
> > Non-Resident Fellow 2022-2023 - Center for Democracy & Technology
> > Associated Scholar - Centro de Tecnologia e Sociedade - Fundação
> Getúlio Vargas
> > Research Fellow - Centre for Internet and Human Rights - European
> University Viadrina
> >
> > Vice chair - Global Internet Governance Academic Network (GigaNet)
> >
> > W: https://nielstenoever.net <https://nielstenoever.net>
> > E: mail at nielstenoever.net <mailto:mail at nielstenoever.net>
> > T: @nielstenoever
> > P/S/WA: +31629051853
> > PGP: 4254 ECD5 D4CF F6AF 8B91 0D9F EFAD 2E49 CC90 C10C
> >
> > Read my latest article on network ideologies and how 5G reshapes the
> internet
> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0308596122001446 <
> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0308596122001446>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Bigbang-dev mailing list
> > Bigbang-dev at data-activism.net <mailto:Bigbang-dev at data-activism.net>
> > https://lists.ghserv.net/mailman/listinfo/bigbang-dev <
> https://lists.ghserv.net/mailman/listinfo/bigbang-dev>
> >
>
> --
> Niels ten Oever, PhD
> Postdoctoral Researcher - Media Studies Department - University of
> Amsterdam
> Affiliated Faculty - Digital Democracy Institute - Simon Fraser University
> Non-Resident Fellow 2022-2023 - Center for Democracy & Technology
> Associated Scholar - Centro de Tecnologia e Sociedade - Fundação Getúlio
> Vargas
> Research Fellow - Centre for Internet and Human Rights - European
> University Viadrina
>
> Vice chair - Global Internet Governance Academic Network (GigaNet)
>
> W: https://nielstenoever.net
> E: mail at nielstenoever.net
> T: @nielstenoever
> P/S/WA: +31629051853
> PGP: 4254 ECD5 D4CF F6AF 8B91 0D9F EFAD 2E49 CC90 C10C
>
> Read my latest article on network ideologies and how 5G reshapes the
> internet
> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0308596122001446
>
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