[Bigbang-dev] Clarifying theoretical commitments going into IETF 116
Sebastian Benthall
sbenthall at gmail.com
Tue Jan 31 14:29:52 CET 2023
Wow, that's fantastic, Priyanka.
I've considered IRL in some work on fiduciary AI, but hadn't thought about
using it for *norm* discovery, but that makes so much sense.
I'm so excited for this work.
I'll read your paper!
On Tue, Jan 31, 2023 at 4:19 PM Priyanka Sinha <
priyanka.sinha.iitg at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Niels and Seb,
>
> I just wanted to mention here that my original thought process was to use
> the Inverse Reinforcement Learning (Deep RL) model where the email threads
> by a user were their "traces" like traffic traces by cars .. to learn their
> behavior given end goals related to norms of privacy. .. At the time,
> inverse RL was modeled using Generative Adversarial Networks whose loss
> function was modified to function for the same..
> I have to go back and see if this area has advanced.
>
> Using textual traces for understanding people I have explored in
> Explaining Outcomes of Multi-Party Dialogues using Causal Learning
> https://arxiv.org/abs/2105.00944
>
> Thanks,
> Priyanka
>
> Hi Seb,
>>
>> More than happy to, but it will be a bit of a literature review on
>> social, technical, legal, and political norms and their interrelation. To
>> address this in my own thinking I am thinking and writing a lot about
>> ideology, ontology, and subjectvity to tie these things more together on a
>> deeper level, because it is hard to clearly differentiate and relate them
>> and understand how they produce each other and how they are translated.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Niels
>>
>> Hi Seb,
>>
>> In the introduction of WN you probably found how I struggled with norms,
>> values, and normativity and tried to create workable seperations. I don't
>> think there is a clear or clean way out of this frankly, because it all is
>> messy. That is why I try to look for underlying principles, and I propose
>> that if we want to research norms, we should look at the structure/patterns
>> of behavior among particular actors. In other words, the way in which they
>> seek to achieve success in norm-setting. If we identify those tactics and
>> strategies, we will also find the contested/inscribed norms. I think that's
>> easier than going directly for the norm, since it can be many things.
>>
>> If you want to read more about openness (and the messiness of norms),
>> have a look at:
>>
>> Russell, Andrew L. Open Standards and the Digital Age. Cambridge
>> University Press, 2014.
>>
>> Or also the chapter about the IETF in WN, or as article:
>>
>> ten Oever, Niels. ??This Is Not How We Imagined It? - Technological
>> Affordances, Economic Drivers and the Internet Architecture Imaginary.? New
>> Media & Society 23, no. 2 (2021).
>>
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Niels
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 30-01-2023 21:48, Sebastian Benthall wrote:
>> > Thomas -- how atheoretically empiricist of you. Perhaps you are an
>> anthropologist.
>> >
>> > Niels -- thanks, that's clarifying. Do those examples have something in
>> common that qualifies them all as "norms"?
>> > Does contestation work similarly across all the different categories of
>> norms?
>> >
>> > Naturally, I'm trying to operationalize something.
>> >
>> > If it were me, I might stop using the term 'norm' so broadly, or
>> reserve it for something specific, and use more particular terms:
>> > - laws (GDPR)
>> > - standards
>> > ?? - and moreover, protocols,
>> >
>> > I don't know about transparency, openness, human rights, or
>> interconnection.
>> > I might use the term 'values' for these.
>> > But maybe you mean something else.
>> >
>> > None of these are how Nissenbaum uses 'norms'.
>> >
>> > - S
>> >
>> > On Mon, Jan 30, 2023 at 7:08 PM Niels ten Oever <mail at nielstenoever.net
>> <mailto:mail at nielstenoever.net>> wrote:
>> >
>> > A law is a norm, a standard is a norm, openness is a norm,
>> transparency is a norm, human rights are norms, HTTPS is a norm,
>> interconnection is a norm. etc. And many of these can be understood at the
>> same time as technical, political, legal, and social norms. Therefore I am
>> not sure whether finding different definitions is necessarily helpful.
>> >
>> > Best,
>> >
>> > Niels
>> >
>> > On 30-01-2023 17:05, Sebastian Benthall wrote:
>> > > Maybe I've missed the concrete example of a norm here...
>> > >
>> > > On Mon, Jan 30, 2023 at 6:50 PM Thomas Streinz <tfs253 at nyu.edu
>> <mailto:tfs253 at nyu.edu> <mailto:tfs253 at nyu.edu <mailto:tfs253 at nyu.edu>>>
>> wrote:
>> > >
>> > >? ? ?Lurking on this list as usual, just a quick aside: I agree
>> that CI and WN operate with different concepts of what a "norm" is and it's
>> important to be aware of that. Within law, there is abundant literature on
>> what a "norm" is, in particular what a "legal norm" as opposed to an
>> "ethical norm" (tracking the divide between natural law and positivism).
>> That said, I'm not convinced that literature is useful for your (our)
>> purposes, because it's so self-referential. It's ultimately less about what
>> the word "norm" means (in a particular context, let alone in the abstract)
>> and more about "what's happening"?in different settings (and whether what
>> Helen/Niels call "norms" is shaping what's happening). Just my two cents.
>> Upwards and onwards.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >? ? ?On Mon, Jan 30, 2023 at 10:44 AM Niels ten Oever <
>> mail at nielstenoever.net <mailto:mail at nielstenoever.net> <mailto:
>> mail at nielstenoever.net <mailto:mail at nielstenoever.net>>> wrote:
>> > >
>> > >? ? ? ? ?Hi Seb,
>> > >
>> > >? ? ? ? ?More than happy to, but it will be a bit of a literature
>> review on social, technical, legal, and political norms and their
>> interrelation. To address this in my own thinking I am thinking and writing
>> a lot about ideology, ontology, and subjectvity to tie these things more
>> together on a deeper level, because it is hard to clearly differentiate and
>> relate them and understand how they produce each other and how they are
>> translated.
>> > >
>> > >? ? ? ? ?Best,
>> > >
>> > >? ? ? ? ?Niels
>> > >
>> > >? ? ? ? ?On 30-01-2023 16:39, Sebastian Benthall wrote:
>> > >? ? ? ? ? > Hi Niels,
>> > >? ? ? ? ? >
>> > >? ? ? ? ? > I wonder if you could provide some concrete examples
>> of what you mean by a norm.
>> > >? ? ? ? ? >
>> > >? ? ? ? ? > Cheers,
>> > >? ? ? ? ? > Seb
>> > >? ? ? ? ? >
>> > >? ? ? ? ? > On Mon, Jan 30, 2023 at 6:34 PM Niels ten Oever <
>> mail at nielstenoever.net <mailto:mail at nielstenoever.net> <mailto:
>> mail at nielstenoever.net <mailto:mail at nielstenoever.net>> <mailto:
>> mail at nielstenoever.net <mailto:mail at nielstenoever.net> <mailto:
>> mail at nielstenoever.net <mailto:mail at nielstenoever.net>>>> wrote:
>> > >? ? ? ? ? >
>> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ?Hi Seb,
>> > >? ? ? ? ? >
>> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ?On a more theoretical note - what I am currently
>> interested in is trying to identify who the actors are that collaborate on
>> particular norms. In WN I have sought to interrogate the underlying norms
>> per governance body. For me two interests flow from there:
>> > >? ? ? ? ? >
>> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ?- What are contested subnorms per body (and how
>> to identify them, and the actors that propone and oppose them)
>> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ?- What are contested norms among bodies (for this
>> we would need cross-body analysis)
>> > >? ? ? ? ? >
>> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ?I would be very interested to see how much
>> overlap there is across bodies and whether there are similar engagement
>> patterns per company. In other words: is there a particular Cisco way of
>> engaging in the IETF, 3GPP, and RIPE ? Or do they shift their approach per
>> body? What can we learn from that, esp irl to Q1!
>> > >? ? ? ? ? >
>> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ?I think it would be very cool if we could get
>> some kind of cross body comparison going.
>> > >? ? ? ? ? >
>> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ?Hope this helps!
>> > >? ? ? ? ? >
>> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ?Best,
>> > >? ? ? ? ? >
>> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ?Niels
>> > >? ? ? ? ? >
>> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ?On 25-01-2023 09:39, Sebastian Benthall wrote:
>> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ? > Hello,
>> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ? >
>> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ? > I'm very pleased to be going to IETF 116 as a
>> public interest technologist!
>> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ? > I intend to so what everybody does at IETF
>> meetings: ethnography!
>> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ? >
>> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ? > To prepare, I've been reading the seminal
>> _Wired Norms: Inscription, resistance, and subversion_ (WN).
>> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ? > I'm reading this keeping in mind Priyanka's
>> interest in a project connecting BigBang and Contextual Integrity (CI)--
>> something I am certainly interested in!
>> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ? >
>> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ? > I thought it might be productive to clarify
>> some theoretical commitments and terminology ahead of time, since CI use
>> the same terms with slightly different meanings and literature sources.
>> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ? >
>> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ? > What both WN and CI have in common is an
>> emphasis on 'norms'.
>> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ? >
>> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ? > In CI, norms are always connected to a social
>> context, and legitimized by the contexts purposes, the ends of agents
>> within the context, and societal purposes. The norms in CI are
>> informational norms, meaning they govern information flows, and especially
>> flows of personal data. CI tends to see the norms as very stable -- part of
>> the context as an institution and imaginary, to use the language of WN --
>> but the norms sometimes change with the introduction of new technology.
>> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ? >
>> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ? > WN uses a less sui generic sense of 'norm'
>> taken from international relations. In many ways this is a richer sense of
>> norm than CI's, as it comes with a theory of norm conflict, which CI in its
>> current form lacks. But it is also perhaps a vague sense of 'norm'. My
>> understanding is that 'norms'in IR theory typically bind state actors,
>> whereas WN considers standards and protocols as themselves 'norms'. Neither
>> of these are precisely the same as the 'social norms' at work in CI. For
>> example, norms abot the use of the personal data of IETF participants,
>> contextualized to the IETF, would be canonical CI norms.
>> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ? >
>> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ? > Norm conflict theories may be a good way to
>> deal with one area where CI has an acknowledged weakness, which is in its
>> (lack of) understanding of context collapse.
>> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ? >
>> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ? > Just riffing a bit in searching of a research
>> question that might be broadly appealing... whereas WN addresses the norm
>> conflict between norms grounded in the private multistakeholder governance
>> values of openness, innovation, etc. and norms grounded in human rights
>> (perhaps, Californian ideology vs. European values, to be crude about it),
>> I'd hazard a guess and add into the conflicted mix managerialist values
>> (corporate) and authoritarian values (various non-Western entrants into
>> IETF standarization?).
>> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ? >
>> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ? > Of course it is most interesting if these
>> values manifest in different _standards_. But in terms of using BigBang,
>> maybe what we can observe is how different actors from different
>> contexts/institutions _behave_ differently within the purposefully
>> "multi"--i.e. pluralized-- context of the IETF? Do they have different
>> information norms? These are maybe "metanorms" with respect to the
>> standards protocols, drafts, and so on.
>> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ? >
>> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ? > Am I hitting any marks here? What do others
>> have in mind for a research frontier for BigBang?
>> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ? >
>> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ? > Best regards,
>> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ? > Seb
>> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ? >
>> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ? >
>> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ? >
>> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ? > _______________________________________________
>> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ? > Bigbang-dev mailing list
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>> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ? >
>> https://lists.ghserv.net/mailman/listinfo/bigbang-dev <
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>> > >? ? ? ? ? >
>> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ?--
>> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ?Niels ten Oever, PhD
>> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ?Postdoctoral Researcher - Media Studies
>> Department - University of Amsterdam
>> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ?Affiliated Faculty - Digital Democracy Institute
>> - Simon Fraser University
>> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ?Non-Resident Fellow 2022-2023 - Center for
>> Democracy & Technology
>> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ?Associated Scholar - Centro de Tecnologia e
>> Sociedade - Funda??o Get?lio Vargas
>> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ?Research Fellow - Centre for Internet and Human
>> Rights - European University Viadrina
>> > >? ? ? ? ? >
>> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ?Vice chair - Global Internet Governance Academic
>> Network (GigaNet)
>> > >? ? ? ? ? >
>> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ?W: https://nielstenoever.net <
>> https://nielstenoever.net> <https://nielstenoever.net <
>> https://nielstenoever.net>> <https://nielstenoever.net <
>> https://nielstenoever.net> <https://nielstenoever.net <
>> https://nielstenoever.net>>>
>> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ?E: mail at nielstenoever.net <mailto:
>> mail at nielstenoever.net> <mailto:mail at nielstenoever.net <mailto:
>> mail at nielstenoever.net>> <mailto:mail at nielstenoever.net <mailto:
>> mail at nielstenoever.net> <mailto:mail at nielstenoever.net <mailto:
>> mail at nielstenoever.net>>>
>> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ?T: @nielstenoever
>> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ?P/S/WA: +31629051853
>> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ?PGP: 4254 ECD5 D4CF F6AF 8B91 0D9F EFAD 2E49 CC90
>> C10C
>> > >? ? ? ? ? >
>> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ?Read my latest article on network ideologies and
>> how 5G reshapes the internet
>> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0308596122001446 <
>> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0308596122001446> <
>> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0308596122001446 <
>> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0308596122001446>> <
>> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0308596122001446 <
>> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0308596122001446> <
>> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0308596122001446 <
>> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0308596122001446>>>
>> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ?_______________________________________________
>> > >? ? ? ? ? >? ? ?Bigbang-dev mailing list
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>> <mailto:Bigbang-dev at data-activism.net <mailto:
>> Bigbang-dev at data-activism.net>>>
>> > >? ? ? ? ? > https://lists.ghserv.net/mailman/listinfo/bigbang-dev
>> <https://lists.ghserv.net/mailman/listinfo/bigbang-dev> <
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>> https://lists.ghserv.net/mailman/listinfo/bigbang-dev>>>
>> > >? ? ? ? ? >
>> > >
>> > >? ? ? ? ?--
>> > >? ? ? ? ?Niels ten Oever, PhD
>> > >? ? ? ? ?Postdoctoral Researcher - Media Studies Department -
>> University of Amsterdam
>> > >? ? ? ? ?Affiliated Faculty - Digital Democracy Institute - Simon
>> Fraser University
>> > >? ? ? ? ?Non-Resident Fellow 2022-2023 - Center for Democracy &
>> Technology
>> > >? ? ? ? ?Associated Scholar - Centro de Tecnologia e Sociedade -
>> Funda??o Get?lio Vargas
>> > >? ? ? ? ?Research Fellow - Centre for Internet and Human Rights -
>> European University Viadrina
>> > >
>> > >? ? ? ? ?Vice chair - Global Internet Governance Academic Network
>> (GigaNet)
>> > >
>> > >? ? ? ? ?W: https://nielstenoever.net <https://nielstenoever.net>
>> <https://nielstenoever.net <https://nielstenoever.net>>
>> > >? ? ? ? ?E: mail at nielstenoever.net <mailto:mail at nielstenoever.net>
>> <mailto:mail at nielstenoever.net <mailto:mail at nielstenoever.net>>
>> > >? ? ? ? ?T: @nielstenoever
>> > >? ? ? ? ?P/S/WA: +31629051853
>> > >? ? ? ? ?PGP: 4254 ECD5 D4CF F6AF 8B91 0D9F EFAD 2E49 CC90 C10C
>> > >
>> > >? ? ? ? ?Read my latest article on network ideologies and how 5G
>> reshapes the internet
>> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0308596122001446 <
>> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0308596122001446> <
>> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0308596122001446 <
>> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0308596122001446>>
>> > >? ? ? ? ?_______________________________________________
>> > >? ? ? ? ?Bigbang-dev mailing list
>> > > Bigbang-dev at data-activism.net <mailto:
>> Bigbang-dev at data-activism.net> <mailto:Bigbang-dev at data-activism.net
>> <mailto:Bigbang-dev at data-activism.net>>
>> > > https://lists.ghserv.net/mailman/listinfo/bigbang-dev <
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>> https://lists.ghserv.net/mailman/listinfo/bigbang-dev>>
>> > >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Niels ten Oever, PhD
>> > Postdoctoral Researcher - Media Studies Department - University of
>> Amsterdam
>> > Affiliated Faculty - Digital Democracy Institute - Simon Fraser
>> University
>> > Non-Resident Fellow 2022-2023 - Center for Democracy & Technology
>> > Associated Scholar - Centro de Tecnologia e Sociedade - Funda??o
>> Get?lio Vargas
>> > Research Fellow - Centre for Internet and Human Rights - European
>> University Viadrina
>> >
>> > Vice chair - Global Internet Governance Academic Network (GigaNet)
>> >
>> > W: https://nielstenoever.net <https://nielstenoever.net>
>> > E: mail at nielstenoever.net <mailto:mail at nielstenoever.net>
>> > T: @nielstenoever
>> > P/S/WA: +31629051853
>> > PGP: 4254 ECD5 D4CF F6AF 8B91 0D9F EFAD 2E49 CC90 C10C
>> >
>> > Read my latest article on network ideologies and how 5G reshapes
>> the internet
>> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0308596122001446 <
>> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0308596122001446>
>> >
>>
>> --
>> Niels ten Oever, PhD
>> Postdoctoral Researcher - Media Studies Department - University of
>> Amsterdam
>> Affiliated Faculty - Digital Democracy Institute - Simon Fraser University
>> Non-Resident Fellow 2022-2023 - Center for Democracy & Technology
>> Associated Scholar - Centro de Tecnologia e Sociedade - Funda??o Get?lio
>> Vargas
>> Research Fellow - Centre for Internet and Human Rights - European
>> University Viadrina
>>
>> Vice chair - Global Internet Governance Academic Network (GigaNet)
>>
>> W: https://nielstenoever.net
>> E: mail at nielstenoever.net
>> T: @nielstenoever
>> P/S/WA: +31629051853
>> PGP: 4254 ECD5 D4CF F6AF 8B91 0D9F EFAD 2E49 CC90 C10C
>>
>> Read my latest article on network ideologies and how 5G reshapes the
>> internet
>> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0308596122001446
>>
>> *******************************************
>>
>
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