[liberationtech] Liberation: Is not Innovations in digital government

[Paul Gardner-Stephen]

Hello all,

Just my quick 2 cents worth:

Even if two concepts are mutually exclusive, it doesn't mean that better
trade-offs between them can be found. The security / convenience trade-off
is a well known example. Just because at a fundamental level, you can't
reconcile them both fully, it doesn't mean that you can't find better
trade-offs, as we have seen with the improvement (admittedly often from a
really low starting-point) of security AND convenience in software.

Paul.

On Wed, 11 Nov 2020 at 06:41, Zach Bastick <zach.bastick at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hello,
>
> Just to be clear here, I speak only for my track. Not the whole conference.
>
> I disagree that "governance" and "liberatory ideas" are necessarily
> mutually exclusive, as I disagree that "governance" and "anarchism" are
> mutually exclusive. Perhaps this is a difference in terminology between us
> - I am using the term ‘governance’ here to signify the spectrum of
> relations that includes anarchism. After all, all forms of relation suppose
> political forces, and these might emerge naturally or organically, even if
> they are not explicitly decided by a collective (as they would be in a
> democracy). Indeed, the nature of ‘anarchic’ power relations have been the
> postulates of many classical thinkers about the human condition under
> ‘states of nature’, from Hobbes and to Locke, yes, but also from Proudhon
> to Bakunin.
>
> I certainly understand the frustration with the work of political science
> in tech. However, a lot is left to be said about how innovations in
> government “keep building further structures of enslavement”, as Gramps
> wrote. What is the nature of this enslavement? How is it operationalized as
> a system? Is there any system of governance (including anarchism) that does
> not entail enslavement of some form? If so, which? If not, are we left to
> choose between the forms of enslavement to which we will be subject? How do
> we balance these with the positive externalities of “public choices”, to
> use David’s term, (yes, I assure you, there are some)? These are complex
> and nuanced issues. They are not only theoretical questions; they are
> practical questions, the answers to which determine the modes, experiences,
> and outcomes of our everyday existence.
>
> I would be more hesitant than you are to classify our track as “yet
> another boring and wrong conference”. Certainly, it might end up being that
> way (this is a feature of conferences more generally). Yet it depends more
> on the types of contributions that we attract than my own intentions.
> Despite the accusation of being “guilty” – which we all are, to one extent
> or another - my throat is parched by the desire for truly inquisitive ideas
> about our modes of cohabitation and governance, and what these mean for our
> values, freedom, and self-actualization.
>
> As such, I once again cordially invite all those interested in formulating
> a fundamental and critical scientific paper on technology and governance to
> submit to our track, under the hope that, as Lee wrote, one might “Think
> outside the box and good things can be allowed to happen”. Writing academic
> conference papers are not everyone’s idea of fun, but if it is your thing,
> have a go at it with me.
>
> (and thanks for having me on the list)
>
> Zach
>
> On Tue, 10 Nov 2020 at 13:10, Lee Alley <lee at morganalley.com> wrote:
>
>> I think you misunderstand the nature of anarchy that may be being
>> posited. The absence of government does not preclude, or necessitate the
>> presence of violence or danger. Indeed some of the oldest participatory
>> communities in the world (certain Swiss cantons) and some of the newest
>> (eg. Somaliland) incorporate decentralised models of participatory shared
>> responsibilities and contract-based services - sweep/pave/protect the
>> streets and you get paid n-amount of [monetary value], and if they fail, or
>> are disintermediated by competitors and/or societal changes, then they are
>> replaced or fired*. No one thinks twice about this with their tech; yet
>> somehow civic particpation is seen as precious requiring an
>> immutable/eternal power structure.
>>
>> Think outside the box and good things can be allowed to happen.
>>
>> Greets to all,
>> Lee
>>
>> * Sometimes known as "anarcho-capitalism"
>>
>>
>> On 10/11/2020 06:18, davidicus wrote:
>>
>> Dear Gramps,
>>
>> That the American public has reached a stage of (de)evolution to the
>> point where some folks see "guns" somehow as "liberatory" and not see that
>> their society (and government) has amassed the largest military in history
>> aided and abetted by the armaments and security complexes (including said
>> gun manufacturers), once again illustrates the contradictions of
>> (communicative) capitalism.
>>
>> "Muskets vs. Military Style Assault Rifles" or "Guns vs. Butter" are
>> questions of and about governance, governmentality, public policy and yes,
>> too, at times "market failure" (whether on questions of Pandemic, Climate
>> Change or Digital Divides). Such are the myriad ways in which public
>> choices are also about governance, governmentality and the demos.  To
>> suggest that anarchy is only about non-governance strikes me as a type of
>> magical thinking particularly in a global system of nation-states, firms,
>> communities that have elected or appointed governmentalities and modes /
>> models of governance.  A co-operative, credit union, school board or
>> voluntary fire fighters team all have employed modes of governance, just as
>> larger geographic entities have.  All can potentially be corrupt or
>> corrupted, but to somehow imagine that the baby should be thrown out in the
>> name of 'anarchy' seems to be a problematic reading from the political
>> right or libertarian techies.
>>
>> Kind Regards,
>> ~david
>> ------------------------------
>> *David Sadoway * PhD  MRM  BES(Hons)
>> Faculty & Instructor. *Geography & The Environment. *
>> Kwantlen Polytechnic University.
>> https://www.kpu.ca/arts/geography/faculty/david-sadoway
>> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/David_Sadoway
>> *KPU is located on the *
>> *unceded lands & waters of the Kwantlen, Katzie, Musqueum, Tsawwassen,
>> Semihamoo, Qayqayt, Sto:Lo and Kwikwetlen Peoples.  *
>>
>>
>> On Mon, 9 Nov 2020 at 21:32, grarpamp <grarpamp at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> > http://dgsociety.org/dgo-2021/call-for-proposals/
>>>
>>> > liberatory ideas
>>> > government (or governance)
>>>
>>> These are mutually exclusive.
>>>
>>> > governance
>>> > anarchic
>>>
>>> These are mututally exclusive.
>>>
>>> > Digital Government Research
>>> > innovations in digital politics and government
>>>
>>> Permanent lifelong intergenerational databases
>>> of all lives, transactions, words, thoughts, love,
>>> DNA, surveillance, spying, lightswitch digital control
>>> of the "misinformation" that is your mind and body,
>>> censorship, rampant media bias, forced lockdown and
>>> inoculation, license logon and permission required
>>> for all daily activities including authenticating to
>>> your toilet bowl for the morning piss, checkpointed
>>> biometric embedded body tags, papers please travel,
>>> encryption bans, firearm bans, 6G reporting in realtime,
>>> facial gait voice analysis, web bugs, NSA, GovCorp in
>>> everything you do, and much much more you despots
>>> have yet to dream up, beyond all above which you've
>>> already implemented.
>>>
>>> > models of governance
>>>
>>> All such in all symposiums on same on this so called "liberation"
>>> list in recent years have all been, disgustingly, about how to keep
>>> building further structures of enslavement over other harmless humans
>>> who've done nothing to you, through forcing yourself and your will over
>>> them, ultimately under threat of death. You are guilty.
>>>
>>>
>>> So for remainder of this month, instead of titillating yourselves
>>> over yet another such boring and wrong conference...
>>> go search, read, and watch...
>>>
>>> Voluntaryism, Libertarian, peace love and Anarchism,
>>> Taxation is Theft, War is Murder, Austrian Economics / Free Markets,
>>> Bitcoin documentaries, Anarcho Capitalism, Non Aggression Principle,
>>> Natural Law, etc... and yes, even...
>>> > crypto-anarchism
>>>
>>> Anything but yet more forcing yourself over others via non
>>> "liberatory ideas" scam of "democracy" and digital govern[ment|nance].
>>>
>>> Then come back and talk about what actions of ungovernance
>>> need done towards reaching living in an actual state of liberation.
>>>
>>> Because what's being talked 100:1 on this list has
>>> absolutely not been actual liberation, nor even tech,
>>> but more politically entrenched systems of GovCorp
>>> power and control.
>>>
>>> That's very bad.
>>> For you.
>>> And your children.
>>> And you know it.
>>>
>>> --
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>>
>>
>> --
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>
> --
> Liberationtech is public & archives are searchable from any major
> commercial search engine. Violations of list guidelines will get you
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> change to digest mode, or change password by emailing
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