<div dir="ltr"><div>Hello all,</div><div><br></div><div>Just my quick 2 cents worth:</div><div><br></div><div>Even if two concepts are mutually exclusive, it doesn't mean that better trade-offs between them can be found. The security / convenience trade-off is a well known example. Just because at a fundamental level, you can't reconcile them both fully, it doesn't mean that you can't find better trade-offs, as we have seen with the improvement (admittedly often from a really low starting-point) of security AND convenience in software. <br><br></div><div>Paul.<br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, 11 Nov 2020 at 06:41, Zach Bastick <<a href="mailto:zach.bastick@gmail.com">zach.bastick@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div>Hello,</div><div><br></div><div>Just to be clear here, I speak only for my track. Not the whole conference.<br></div><div><br></div><div>I disagree that "governance" and "liberatory ideas" are necessarily mutually exclusive, as I disagree that "governance" and "anarchism" are mutually exclusive. Perhaps this is a difference in terminology between us - I am using the term ‘governance’ here to signify the spectrum of relations that includes anarchism. After all, all forms of relation suppose political forces, and these might emerge naturally or organically, even if they are not explicitly decided by a collective (as they would be in a democracy). Indeed, the nature of ‘anarchic’ power relations have been the postulates of many classical thinkers about the human condition under ‘states of nature’, from Hobbes and to Locke, yes, but also from Proudhon to Bakunin.<br></div><div><br></div><div>I certainly understand the frustration with the work of political science in tech. However, a lot is left to be said about how innovations in government “keep building further structures of enslavement”, as Gramps wrote. What is the nature of this enslavement? How is it operationalized as a system? Is there any system of governance (including anarchism) that does not entail enslavement of some form? If so, which? If not, are we left to choose between the forms of enslavement to which we will be subject? How do we balance these with the positive externalities of “public choices”, to use David’s term, (yes, I assure you, there are some)? These are complex and nuanced issues. They are not only theoretical questions; they are practical questions, the answers to which determine the modes, experiences, and outcomes of our everyday existence. <br></div><div><br></div><div>I would be more hesitant than you are to classify our track as “yet another boring and wrong conference”. Certainly, it might end up being that way (this is a feature of conferences more generally). Yet it depends more on the types of contributions that we attract than my own intentions. Despite the accusation of being “guilty” – which we all are, to one extent or another - my throat is parched by the desire for truly inquisitive ideas about our modes of cohabitation and governance, and what these mean for our values, freedom, and self-actualization. <br></div><div><br></div><div>As such, I once again cordially invite all those interested in formulating a fundamental and critical scientific paper on technology and governance to submit to our track, under the hope that, as Lee wrote, one might “Think outside the box and good things can be allowed to happen”. Writing academic conference papers are not everyone’s idea of fun, but if it is your thing, have a go at it with me.</div><div><br></div><div>(and thanks for having me on the list)</div><div><br></div>Zach<br></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, 10 Nov 2020 at 13:10, Lee Alley <<a href="mailto:lee@morganalley.com" target="_blank">lee@morganalley.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p>I think you misunderstand the nature of anarchy that may be being
posited. The absence of government does not preclude, or
necessitate the presence of violence or danger. Indeed some of the
oldest participatory communities in the world (certain Swiss
cantons) and some of the newest (eg. Somaliland) incorporate
decentralised models of participatory shared responsibilities and
contract-based services - sweep/pave/protect the streets and you
get paid n-amount of [monetary value], and if they fail, or are
disintermediated by competitors and/or societal changes, then they
are replaced or fired*. No one thinks twice about this with their
tech; yet somehow civic particpation is seen as precious requiring
an immutable/eternal power structure.</p>
<p>Think outside the box and good things can be allowed to happen.</p>
<p>Greets to all,<br>
Lee</p>
<p>* Sometimes known as "anarcho-capitalism"</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div>On 10/11/2020 06:18, davidicus wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr"><font size="4">Dear Gramps, <br>
</font></div>
<div dir="ltr"><font size="4"><br clear="all">
</font>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div><font size="4" face="Tunga,Sans-Serif">That
the American
public has
reached a
stage of
(de)evolution
to the point
where some
folks see
"guns" somehow
as
"liberatory"
and not see
that their
society (and
government)
has amassed
the largest
military in
history aided
and abetted by
the armaments
and security
complexes
(including
said gun
manufacturers),
once again
illustrates
the
contradictions
of
(communicative)
capitalism. <br>
</font></div>
<div><font size="4" face="Tunga,Sans-Serif"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font size="4" face="Tunga,Sans-Serif">"Muskets
vs. Military
Style Assault
Rifles" or
"Guns vs.
Butter" are
questions of
and about
governance,
governmentality,
public policy
and yes, too,
at times
"market
failure"
(whether on
questions of
Pandemic,
Climate Change
or Digital
Divides). Such
are the myriad
ways in which
public choices
are also about
governance,
governmentality
and the
demos. To
suggest that
anarchy is
only about
non-governance
strikes me as
a type of
magical
thinking
particularly
in a global
system of
nation-states,
firms,
communities
that have
elected or
appointed
governmentalities
and modes /
models of
governance. A
co-operative,
credit union,
school board
or voluntary
fire fighters
team all have
employed modes
of governance,
just as larger
geographic
entities
have. All can
potentially be
corrupt or
corrupted, but
to somehow
imagine that
the baby
should be
thrown out in
the name of
'anarchy'
seems to be a
problematic
reading from
the political
right or
libertarian
techies. <br>
</font></div>
<div><font size="4" face="Tunga,Sans-Serif"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font size="4" face="Tunga,Sans-Serif">Kind
Regards,</font></div>
<div><font face="Tunga,Sans-Serif"><font size="4">~david</font><br>
</font></div>
<div>
<div name="divtagdefaultwrapper" style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;margin:0px">
<hr> <font face="Symbol,'Segoe
UI',Tahoma,Sans-Serif"><b>David Sadoway </b> PhD MRM BES(Hons)<br>
Faculty &
Instructor. <i>Geography
& The
Environment. </i><br>
</font></div>
<div name="divtagdefaultwrapper" style="margin:0px"><font face="Symbol,'Segoe UI',Tahoma,Sans-Serif">Kwantlen
Polytechnic
University.</font></div>
<div name="divtagdefaultwrapper" style="margin:0px"><font size="2" face="Symbol,'Segoe
UI',Tahoma,Sans-Serif"><a href="https://www.kpu.ca/arts/geography/faculty/david-sadoway" target="_blank">https://www.kpu.ca/arts/geography/faculty/david-sadoway
</a></font></div>
<font face="Symbol,'Segoe
UI',Tahoma,Sans-Serif"><font size="2"><a href="https://www.researchgate.net/profile/David_Sadoway" target="_blank">https://www.researchgate.net/profile/David_Sadoway</a> </font></font>
<span lang="EN-US">
<span lang="EN-US"><span></span></span></span>
<div name="divtagdefaultwrapper" style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;margin:0px"> <font size="1"><i>KPU
is located on
the </i><i>unceded
lands &
waters of the
Kwantlen, Katzie, Musqueum, Tsawwassen, Semihamoo, Qayqayt, Sto:Lo and
Kwikwetlen
Peoples. <br>
</i></font></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, 9 Nov 2020 at 21:32,
grarpamp <<a href="mailto:grarpamp@gmail.com" target="_blank">grarpamp@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">> <a href="http://dgsociety.org/dgo-2021/call-for-proposals/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://dgsociety.org/dgo-2021/call-for-proposals/</a><br>
<br>
> liberatory ideas<br>
> government (or governance)<br>
<br>
These are mutually exclusive.<br>
<br>
> governance<br>
> anarchic<br>
<br>
These are mututally exclusive.<br>
<br>
> Digital Government Research<br>
> innovations in digital politics and government<br>
<br>
Permanent lifelong intergenerational databases<br>
of all lives, transactions, words, thoughts, love,<br>
DNA, surveillance, spying, lightswitch digital control<br>
of the "misinformation" that is your mind and body,<br>
censorship, rampant media bias, forced lockdown and<br>
inoculation, license logon and permission required<br>
for all daily activities including authenticating to<br>
your toilet bowl for the morning piss, checkpointed<br>
biometric embedded body tags, papers please travel,<br>
encryption bans, firearm bans, 6G reporting in realtime,<br>
facial gait voice analysis, web bugs, NSA, GovCorp in<br>
everything you do, and much much more you despots<br>
have yet to dream up, beyond all above which you've<br>
already implemented.<br>
<br>
> models of governance<br>
<br>
All such in all symposiums on same on this so called
"liberation"<br>
list in recent years have all been, disgustingly, about how
to keep<br>
building further structures of enslavement over other
harmless humans<br>
who've done nothing to you, through forcing yourself and
your will over<br>
them, ultimately under threat of death. You are guilty.<br>
<br>
<br>
So for remainder of this month, instead of titillating
yourselves<br>
over yet another such boring and wrong conference...<br>
go search, read, and watch...<br>
<br>
Voluntaryism, Libertarian, peace love and Anarchism,<br>
Taxation is Theft, War is Murder, Austrian Economics / Free
Markets,<br>
Bitcoin documentaries, Anarcho Capitalism, Non Aggression
Principle,<br>
Natural Law, etc... and yes, even...<br>
> crypto-anarchism<br>
<br>
Anything but yet more forcing yourself over others via non<br>
"liberatory ideas" scam of "democracy" and digital
govern[ment|nance].<br>
<br>
Then come back and talk about what actions of ungovernance<br>
need done towards reaching living in an actual state of
liberation.<br>
<br>
Because what's being talked 100:1 on this list has<br>
absolutely not been actual liberation, nor even tech,<br>
but more politically entrenched systems of GovCorp<br>
power and control.<br>
<br>
That's very bad.<br>
For you.<br>
And your children.<br>
And you know it.<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Liberationtech is public & archives are searchable from
any major commercial search engine. Violations of list
guidelines will get you moderated: <a href="https://lists.ghserv.net/mailman/listinfo/lt" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.ghserv.net/mailman/listinfo/lt</a>.
Unsubscribe, change to digest mode, or change password by
emailing <a href="mailto:lt-owner@lists.liberationtech.org" target="_blank">lt-owner@lists.liberationtech.org</a>.</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset></fieldset>
</blockquote>
</div>
-- <br>
Liberationtech is public & archives are searchable from any major commercial search engine. Violations of list guidelines will get you moderated: <a href="https://lists.ghserv.net/mailman/listinfo/lt" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.ghserv.net/mailman/listinfo/lt</a>. Unsubscribe, change to digest mode, or change password by emailing <a href="mailto:lt-owner@lists.liberationtech.org" target="_blank">lt-owner@lists.liberationtech.org</a>.</blockquote></div>
-- <br>
Liberationtech is public & archives are searchable from any major commercial search engine. Violations of list guidelines will get you moderated: <a href="https://lists.ghserv.net/mailman/listinfo/lt" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.ghserv.net/mailman/listinfo/lt</a>. Unsubscribe, change to digest mode, or change password by emailing <a href="mailto:lt-owner@lists.liberationtech.org" target="_blank">lt-owner@lists.liberationtech.org</a>.</blockquote></div>