[liberationtech] Deep Divers, there is no such thing as liberation tech

Tue May 5 18:49:14 CEST 2020

Sorry for trolling grarpamp's thread.  Doug replied privately to confirm my
question, and let me know that others here are struggling with that too.

Moderator: if you publicized my question please publicize this answer so
people know it was closed.

On Tue, May 5, 2020, 12:30 PM Karl <gmkarl at gmail.com> wrote:

> Wonderful =)
>
> It sounds like you need help making sure people are acting on each others'
> knowledge?
>
> On Tue, May 5, 2020, 12:26 PM Doug Schuler <
> douglas at publicsphereproject.org> wrote:
>
>> Couldn't we just look at what pages people spend the most time with? The
>> amount of advertising. The percentage of commercial sites vs.
>> non-commercial. I didn't think that corporate and state domination of the
>> internet was in dispute.
>>
>> But I don't think we could point to one person! There are plenty of local
>> fiefdoms ruled not just by corporations (although money I assume plays a
>> massive role) China and Russia, etc.
>>
>> On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 9:08 AM Karl <gmkarl at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Doug,
>>>
>>> It sounds like you're aware of the internet being solely
>>> corporate-dominated.
>>>
>>> If we had proof that someone were algorithmically ensuring that the
>>> internet stayed corporate-dominated, do you know of a way to preserve and
>>> possibly publicize such proof?
>>>
>>> On Tue, May 5, 2020, 11:49 AM Doug Schuler <
>>> douglas at publicsphereproject.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Technology absolutely has politics since it's embedded within social
>>>> (and material) contexts. I like Langdon's quote in the Whale and the
>>>> Reactor: "Because choices tend to become strongly fixed in material
>>>> equipment, economic investment, and social habit, the original flexibility
>>>> vanishes for all practical purposes once the initial commitments are made."
>>>>
>>>> On the other hand, technology is not strictly deterministic. A hospital
>>>> can be used to help heal people or it can be used to imprison them and to
>>>> perform experiments on them. Television doesn't have to be a solely
>>>> corporate dominated medium nor does the internet — but they are.
>>>>
>>>> — Doug
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 7:39 AM Aram Sinnreich <aramsinnreich at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> What do you make of Langdon Winner's work, arguing that sociotechnical
>>>>> artifacts have inherent "politics?"
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>
>>>>> > On May 5, 2020, at 10:33 AM, grarpamp <grarpamp at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Technology is but an agnostic tool.
>>>>> > There is no such thing as a liberation tech,
>>>>> > only applied tech via paths toward something.
>>>>> > One cannot apply a tech toward liberation
>>>>> > without first considering what a state of being
>>>>> > of actual liberation might variously be about,
>>>>> > to know where to go, what to make with the tech.
>>>>> > Democracy being nothing more than a
>>>>> > decentralized form of the murderous dictators
>>>>> > many claim to be liberating themselves or people from,
>>>>> > both forms hardly a state of liberation at all,
>>>>> > yet worshipped and profferred by all too many,
>>>>> > we therefore continue this random series
>>>>> > on path choices...
>>>>> >
>>>>> > How to be a tyrant. Sound Familiar?
>>>>> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4LtEciQUF8
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Deep Divers, let the balloon go!
>>>>> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UbX-Bvb2u_w
>>>>> >
>>>>> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_U3lEc-IFr8
>>>>> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWLntHoTgDA
>>>>> >
>>>>> > --
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>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Liberationtech is public & archives are searchable from any major
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Douglas Schuler
>>>> douglas at publicsphereproject.org
>>>> Twitter: @doug_schuler
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Public Sphere Project
>>>>      http://www.publicsphereproject.org/
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>> Creating the World Citizen Parliament
>>>>
>>>> http://interactions.acm.org/archive/view/may-june-2013/creating-the-world-citizen-parliament
>>>>
>>>> Liberating Voices!  A Pattern Language for Communication Revolution
>>>> (project)
>>>>      http://www.publicsphereproject.org/patterns/lv
>>>> <http://www.publicsphereproject.org/patterns/>
>>>>
>>>> Liberating Voices!  A Pattern Language for Communication Revolution
>>>> (book)
>>>>  http://mitpress.mit.edu/catalog/item/default.asp?ttype=2&tid=11601
>>>> --
>>>> Liberationtech is public & archives are searchable from any major
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>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> Douglas Schuler
>> douglas at publicsphereproject.org
>> Twitter: @doug_schuler
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Public Sphere Project
>>      http://www.publicsphereproject.org/
>>
>> Mailing list ~ Collective Intelligence for the Common Good
>>      * http://lists.scn.org/mailman/listinfo/ci
>> <http://lists.scn.org/mailman/listinfo/ci>4cg-announce*
>>
>> Creating the World Citizen Parliament
>>
>> http://interactions.acm.org/archive/view/may-june-2013/creating-the-world-citizen-parliament
>>
>> Liberating Voices!  A Pattern Language for Communication Revolution
>> (project)
>>      http://www.publicsphereproject.org/patterns/lv
>> <http://www.publicsphereproject.org/patterns/>
>>
>> Liberating Voices!  A Pattern Language for Communication Revolution
>> (book)
>>  http://mitpress.mit.edu/catalog/item/default.asp?ttype=2&tid=11601
>>
>
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