[liberationtech] Secret European deals to hand over private data to America

[taxakis]

> None of the above is anything that has not been said and written by many
advocates over the last 20 years orso. The only question is, will European
governments actually *do* something this time?

Most likely not, Arjen.  Not because they don't have the political will, but
because the build-up of the vast NSA systems was and is an ongoing operation
since the early 1950's, there is an international 'trade market' of the
information (country X taps country Y, etc. and they interchange the data),
NSA is a fairly large employer (some 40,000+ contract employees and several
thousand externals), there is a sizeable technical industry catering to the
agency involving billions of dollars, and including the satellite works
(N.G.A. and N.R.O.) trillions of dollars, because President Obama certainly
doesn't get the Senate and the House votes to stop it, because most
Americans only protest against what's done to them (and absolutely
positively don't care a flying f*ck about the rest of the world, and that
includes all of Europe) and then finally the setup is practically
irreversible. 

I am afraid it stays with sharpening knives. You may call it saber-rattling.
Over time those are holstered again, and life goes on, and so will the NSA
and its enormous networks.  

> In the coming months governments or individual European nations can show
themselves to be democratic governments or US vassals.

Predicted vassals:
- - The UK
- - Ireland
- - Denmark
- - Sweden
- - The Netherlands

Somewhat functioning governments (YMMV):
- - Norway
- - Germany
- - France
- - Spain
- - Portugal
- - Chech republic (?)
- - Iceland (?)

On your list:  Sorry to say this, but talking about the E.U. Iceland and
Norway are not a part of the European Union. Both nations go their own way.
Only Norway has some influence as it could revoke the presence of the NATO
installations in the North, part of the U.S. defense shield against Russia.
I see that - even in an arm-twisting situation - as highly unlikely. The
Czech Republic is or rather has become an intimate friend of the U.S.  It is
safe to assume that they are in the first group.  In your somewhat
functioning group, Germany, Spain, Italy all have US (and NSA) substations.
Believe me or not there is a sizeable paper trail (read: bilateral
agreements) on those.  The bases and installations contain enough spook
machinery to listen to any and every fart imaginable.  And what's not caught
is captured by Cheltenham (GCHQ) and Menwith Hill.  On the two nations left
in that group, France and Portugal I can only say that France has its own
Echelon/Cheltenham setup, about which much less is said and written (they do
have whistleblowers, but these oddly disappear), but with nearly the same
capabilities as the Brits. Portugal doesn't really play a role, except
perhaps because it was some 20 years ago a/the plan to establish the
European Union's own secret intelligence agency there. It was cancelled. Not
the agency, but plan to put it in Lisbon. I miss Belgium in your list.
Believe me they will advocate very strongly against the U.S. because their
livelihood depends on the "Capital of Europe".  And you forgot Finland. They
are most definitely a U.S. ally. 

PS: ook vriendelijke groet.

Rob Frei