[liberationtech] The bitcoin terrorists of Idlib are learning new tricks

[Travis Biehn]

"There is much more that could be said on the immorality of criminal
currencies but the verdict is clear: These are despicable instruments
being peddled by despicable, greedy people who cloak their immorality
with fine talk of 'freedom' and vicious personal attacks on anyone who
dares tell the truth."

Buying marijuana was just one of the 'immoral criminal and despicable'
uses for 'criminal currency'. Soon we'll be able to use US dollars to
buy pot from Philip-Morris.

Some people's crimes are other people's freedom. This should be a
widely understood concept on LibTech where technology is used to help
individuals and organizations mobilize against oppressors of all
types. You might get pushback on the idea of an 'accountable internet'
to stop internet crime, here.

As an aside, I've used lightning for bitcoin transactions, they're
instant (<1s), decentralized, and essentially free.

Your rhetoric is pretty whack Phillip,

-Travis

On Sun, May 23, 2021 at 6:17 PM Marc Sunet <msunet at shellblade.net> wrote:
>
> > BTC is not decentralized, that is pure propaganda. While the ledger itself is decentralized in theory, Network effects have led to the creation of mining cartels and the practical difficulties of managing crypto and the cost of transactions have led to most of the float being held on exchanges.
>
> I forgot about that too, and I think it was the strongest point. I think technologists should stop thinking about technology in a vacuum, and instead think about how the technology fits within society, and how social/political effects like the one you mentioned can steer the technology in unintended directions. Big Tech in particular is really insidious about this and their indifference towards society is despicable. At any rate, any technologist who pretends they can fix the world's problems with technology and completely ignore social/political effects is selling you snake oil. That much I have already learned.
>
> On 5/23/21 12:51 PM, Marc Sunet wrote:
>
> Very fair points, thank you. And the history lesson was a good one too.
>
> I would not want to pretend I have the technical expertise to question anything you said, and I have the same opinion on the morality side of things. That being said, cybersecurity is more expensive than spreading FUD like you said in the previous email, and it's clear that that is what is keeping corporate media busy these days. Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies enable/boost schemes like ransomware for sure, but USD, and currencies before it, have also been an enabler of crime for the longest. It's not like any of the crimes you mentioned are new. Yet the corporate media, of course, chooses to mostly ignore that fact, because they have a political agenda to further. So my criticism (and I think part of grarpamp's email) is that the media is only looking at the side of the coin that best serves its interests, not educating/informing people (I guess that would be a first.)
>
> You also ask "who lies on that scale?" and seem to be very fixated with Trump. But US governments before and after him have and will continue to do so. I don't think this point necessitates much explanation? For what it's worth, Biden so far hasn't done much to protect journalists and undo Trump's policies in that regard. Those are precisely the people who can uncover truth:
>
> https://freedom.press/news/biden-defends-trump-surveillance-of-reporters/
>
> https://freedom.press/news/biden-justice-end-assange-prosecution-coalition-letter/
>
> https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2021/02/amnesty-international-joins-civil-liberties-groups-to-ask-biden-to-drop-case-against-julian-assange/
>
> And for what it's worth, Ethereum is switching to PoS soon. That should at least address their energy waste?
>
> https://blog.ethereum.org/2021/05/18/country-power-no-more/
>
> On 5/23/21 10:41 AM, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote:
>
>
>
> On Sun, May 23, 2021 at 2:06 AM Marc Sunet <msunet at shellblade.net> wrote:
>>
>> So what specifically is immoral about cryptocurrencies in your opinion?
>>
>> Also, throwing grarpamp in the Trump sack was a bit out of the blue? He had some good points if you just ignore the writing style. Some groups are ringing bells about cashless societies, for example (last link in Spanish):
>>
>> https://www.theguardian.com/money/2020/jun/24/you-cant-pay-cash-here-how-cashless-society-harms-most-vulnerable
>>
>> https://collateralbits.net/la-maldicion-del-dinero/
>>
>> This mailing list always turns hostile for no reason. Since you are experts, why not educate people when somebody raises a point here?
>
> Well first off, this is not the only list on which grarpamp has shared his opinions. I have found him to be long on accusatory language (everyone I don't like is a statist) and short on facts. He stopped posting on the Cryptography list after being repeatedly schooled for stating that professional cryptographers with decades of experience who have been discussing BTC since it was launched there need to 'educate themselves'.
>
> I find accusing people of being statists, pro government, etc. as a bullying tactic. That is all grarpamp has and its all Trump ever had. Use Trumper tactics, get thrown in the Trump sack, seems fair to me.
>
> The aggressive gaslighting and coinsplaining is of course entirely self interested. Anyone who holds BitCoin is by definition a person with a vested interest in finding a greater fool to sell their cowrie shells onto. That is the second reason to throw them in the Trump sack - they are con artists trying to put your money in their pockets. I don't think that is moral behavior.
>
> I am a big fan of the cashless society, I have spent a large part of my 29 year career in designing and deploying payment systems. I have been trying to develop a micropayments scheme for buying Web content since 1992. None of the current ledger bases schemes is remotely close to serving that need with the possible exception of Dogecoin which can't meet that need at scale.
>
> And here we get to the fact that the only thing we have learned about BitCoin after 12 years of deployment experience is that it is impossible to change the deployed infrastructure. We are long past the early days of criminal-currencies. What you see now is all you are going to get. Repeated attempts to change the infrastructure have failed. So the fact that it costs $22 to make a BTC transaction today is really significant. That is vastly more than any other payment system except SWIFT. And if you factor in the cost of converting hard currency into and out of BTC, the cost of using BTC to make an uninsured, irrevocable transfer is five to ten times the cost of an insured transfer via SWIFT and vastly more than other means.
>
> So this is a ruinously expensive payment system that cannot be improved after deployment. Does it provide any advantages? Not unless you want to buy drugs, images of children being raped, collect ransomware extortion or evade exchange controls. The only selling point of BTC as a payment scheme is that it enables criminal behavior. And with the exception of evading exchange controls, the criminal behavior in question is despicable.
>
> BTC is not decentralized, that is pure propaganda. While the ledger itself is decentralized in theory, Network effects have led to the creation of mining cartels and the practical difficulties of managing crypto and the cost of transactions have led to most of the float being held on exchanges.
>
> None of the criminality is acknowledged by BitCoin boosters. They poo-poo the fact that BTC accounts for a negligible fraction of global commerce and the majority of major financial frauds. One-coin Quadrifinex, Mount Gox, The most profitable way to run an exchange is to run it as a Ponzi scheme.
>
> Nor is the fact that proof of waste is a despicable principle on which to assign value. The criminal-currency world creates no value. They consume more electricity than the entire nation of Argentina. They can't argue with that fact so they instead pretend that the miners are using renewable energy, a flat out lie. Who else lies on that scale? Well Trump of course, back in the Trump sack again.
>
> There is much more that could be said on the immorality of criminal currencies but the verdict is clear: These are despicable instruments being peddled by despicable, greedy people who cloak their immorality with fine talk of 'freedom' and vicious personal attacks on anyone who dares tell the truth.
>
>
>
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