[liberationtech] State Department Determines Hong Kong Is No Longer Autonomous From China

[Yosem Companys]

Read below. I do not see how this is helpful.
*****
The State Department has officially determined that Hong Kong is no longer
autonomous from China, Secretary of State Mike Pompeo said in a statement that
holds implications for the future of economic ties and could lead to sanctions
against China.
From: Richard Brooks  <rrb at g.clemson.edu>
Date: Wed, May 27, 2020 at 7:14 AM
Subject: Re: [liberationtech] What could we at Liberationtech do to help
pro-democracy HK activists protest China's new security law?
To: <lt at lists.liberationtech.org>


Waiting for the species to evolve does not seem particularly
useful. Nor does just stating that all forms of government
are equally bad.

I have seen technical interventions bear fruit:

-Election monitoring reducing fraud in Senegal, and
post-election violence in Kenya,
-Large-scale protests in Burkina Faso did result in
deposing a dictator and replacement with a democratically
elected government. Which is not perfect, but better.
-Post election coordination in Gambia did result in
dictator YahYah Jammeh being replaced with a democratically
chosen president. Who is not perfect, but better.
(Worse would have been difficult.)

Good things can happen. Political planning and coordination
is needed and change will need time. My colleagues
talk about working for their grandchildren.

Hong Kong has multiple problems. No one is going to confront
the PRC. HK is unpopular with the majority of the PRC
population who see them as spoiled. The PRC clearly has more
military and economic might. On the other hand, HK is
useful for the PRC.

Giving the HK population the ability to send information
to the outside world is not likely to be useful. Giving
them safe and unfiltered communications channels to
access  external information and to communicate  internally
is probably worthwhile.

I am not certain if protest might not just lead to an
eventual violent confrontation, although they have
done a good job of keeping the worst from happening so far.

On 5/26/20 6:29 PM, Raymond Saner wrote:
> thanks Hans, you bring up the old and still relevant question:  revolutionary
or evolutionary change?
> we have the old adage in Europe which states:  plus ça change, plus ça reste
la même chose and  plus ça reste la même chose, plus ça change
> 
> best, Raymond
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: LT [mailto:lt-bounces at lists.liberationtech.org] On Behalf Of Klein, Hans
K
> Sent: 26 May 2020 17:41
> To: grarpamp <grarpamp at gmail.com>; lt at lists.liberationtech.org
> Subject: Re: [liberationtech] What could we at Liberationtech do to help
pro-democracy HK activists protest China's new security law?
> 
> Well, I would propose a softer version of the posting below.
> 
> As currently practiced, liberation technology and its policy partner,
democracy promotion, build on an implicit and overly-simple model of democracy.
It involves catalyzing large public protests that destabilize governments. 
> 
> The model supposes that destabilization is followed by "democracy", but in
fact destabilization is more often followed by chaos, civil war, and foreign
intervention.
> 
> Libya had a brief democratic moment, but now it has a civil war; so far the
list of interveners includes France, Italy, US, Turkey, and Russia.  Syria had
its moment, but then came foreign intervention in the form of various radical
mercenaries backed by Turkey, Saudi Arabia, and even the US.  Ukraine had its
big demonstrations, but the people in the Maidan were then given a government
hand-picked by foreign powers  (See: BBC [ 
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957  ], Consortium News [ 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGq_Xvzn_3I  ] .)  In every case, the people
(the "demos") of the country came out as the loser.
> 
> What is a more effective model of democracy promotion?  I think it is one
based on organic growth in the society.  Political development takes time;  the
clock speed may be measured in human generations.  The successful model requires
patient nurturing and no threatening or attacking. The terrible democracy
recession that we have seen in the last 10 years is in large part a reaction to
outsiders seeing democracy as an act of "liberation", i.e. as a rapid and
kinetic process that can deliver immediate results. 
> 
> In each case, we can ask what is worse: the problem or the cure?
>   Syria: Assad or the civil war
>   Libya: Ghaddafi or the civil war
>   Ukraine: Yanukovych or the civil war
> (You can pose the same question of Iraq and Afghanistan...)
> 
> A useful question would be: given the learning that (hopefully) has taken
place, what could we at LiberationTech do to *effectively* promote democracy?
> 
> Hans Klein
> School of Public Policy
> Georgia Tech
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: LT [mailto:lt-bounces at lists.liberationtech.org] On Behalf Of grarpamp
> Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2020 6:32 AM
> To: lt at lists.liberationtech.org
> Subject: Re: [liberationtech] What could we at Liberationtech do to help
pro-democracy HK activists protest China's new security law?
> 
>> What could we ... do to help pro-democracy ... activists ...
>> do things that have not been done in the past.
> 
> Stop teaching them that they can somehow break free from whatever shithole
government they're under now by claiming democracy is some magical font of
freedom worth aspiring to. It's not, at all. It's just another form of same
slavery, force, murder, trickery, theft, war, false authority...
> Spread out, infused, diluted, harder to see and kill than their average
dictator, by design... a ruse, a ploy, a trap for confusing the sheeple. And it
worked.
> "B-ah-ah-ah" they all said, "oh please give us that" they begged, while
scrambling over each other in queues hundreds deep to cast discard their own
fates down some worthless memehole in a box... a final act of spiritual suicide
transformed into one of joy by the programming of the wolves that still rule
over all of them.
> 
> Regarding "government", there is only one thing that hasn't been done in the
past.
> 
> --
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> 

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