<div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div>Yes, Michael and others<br></div><div><br></div><div>Thanks for raising these issues, and thanks LT for the opportunity to exchange</div><div><br></div><div>Is it okay to change the subject line to continue this thread?</div><div><br></div><div>It is great to hear from someone who fought the real war, the war against war. <br></div><div>I go to Vietnam these days on visa runs, and love the place but believe it or not, I do not find anyone to</div><div>have a decent conversation with about how things are going</div><div><br></div><div>My quick answers to your questions</div><div>1) Things have come much more complicated these days, After WW2, the world order started taking a specific turn, through the Marshall plan, NATO etc</div><div>Mind you, they all loved the americans when they came after the war, because they brought great smiles sugar and nylon stockings (I heard these stories from my grandmother and my parents who were around at the time) What they were not aware of, is that a huge capitalistic and war machine was going</div><div>to piggyback on the so-called liberation and eventually build a huge evil network that is controlling the world today.</div><div><br></div><div> What we did not know is that there were paradoxes, and complications were going to build up. The Vietnam war</div><div>was a mad thing, which brought great devastation, Today, I can say that the US has won the war in Vietnam through the business development that followed withdrawal and through the economics of reparations</div><div><br></div><div> Vietnam nowadays is a huge business playground, Anyone in Hanoi who may want to meet for a cigar and talk about politics for a change would be great btw</div><div>Today, the war cannot be stopped as easily because the parasitic system, the war machine, globalisation and capitalism have become</div><div>too strong, the logic that fuel wars fuels research,science, technology education, politics, economics everywhere. This is why I look at Vietnam as a possible model for change, but then, I wonder, how independent they really are from this cycle? Love to talk about it sometime, preferably in Hanoi :-)</div><div><br></div><div>2)Of course social media is okay, when used intelligently. It is a means of communication, Aligning attention with values without deceiving ourselves</div><div>that we are doing good, when in reality be are both the victims and perpetrators of harm and disinformation, is supported by social media also</div><div>This is a good time to remember we come with consciousness, and that it is our consciousness that plays a role in all of this</div><div><br></div><div>Just as a personal note,in case people wonder, I am not actually a communist :-) But I subscribe of coure to the great ideals and values of socialism</div><div>minus the aberrations. Great journal here btw <br></div><div><a href="https://www.tandfonline.com/toc/rrmx20/28/3-4">https://www.tandfonline.com/toc/rrmx20/28/3-4</a></div><div><br></div><div>I believe that the real revolution can only come from within (in the buddhist sense of taming ones defilements) I see Ho Chi Minh as a spiritual teacher</div><div>liberation as Moksha (as per my talk in Bombay in 2014<br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Look forward to enlightened conversations</div><div><br></div><div>Best <br></div><div><br></div><div>PDM<br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Apr 25, 2024 at 4:28 AM Michael H. Goldhaber <<a href="mailto:michael@goldhaber.org">michael@goldhaber.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto">I just want to congratulate the re-founders of LT. <div><br><div>Two points: 1. In the late ‘60’s I was among those who led delegations to visit Congressional offices and campaign for peace in Vietnam. We did have impact. I’m not quite sure why that simple process can’t t work for important issues now.</div><div><br></div><div>2. I’m writing a book on the Internet and the human future. For all their many flaws, social media allow huge numbers of people worldwide to seek attention from anywhere at little cost. The problem is in paying them due attention. It’s fundamentally a social problem: learning or figuring out how to give some of our attention to the weakest voices, and then committing to doing so. That will also involve teaching how. </div><div><br></div><div>Comments?</div><div><br id="m_8062548606157370227lineBreakAtBeginningOfSignature"><div dir="ltr"><br><div><br></div><div>Michael Goldhaber via iPhone, so please ecuse misteaks.</div></div><div dir="ltr"><br><blockquote type="cite">On Apr 22, 2024, at 8:04 PM, Daylon Soh <<a href="mailto:daylon@curiouscore.com" target="_blank">daylon@curiouscore.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></blockquote></div><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr">Hi everyone, <div><br></div><div>I joined the list out of sheer curiosity after watching Mr. Robot. Am an ex-journalist and communications manager turned education entrepreneur. </div><div><br></div><div>We run a business training digital skills based in Singapore and Malaysia. </div><div><br></div><div>Happy to connect via <a href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/daylonsoh/" target="_blank">https://www.linkedin.com/in/daylonsoh/</a> </div></div><br><img width="0" height="0" alt="" style="display: flex;"><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Apr 23, 2024 at 4:43 AM Kate Krauss <<a href="mailto:katiephr@gmail.com" target="_blank">katiephr@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div style="font-size:small">Dear Lorelei,</div><div style="font-size:small"><br></div><div style="font-size:small">Wow--I have never thought about the right to petition or the idea that Facebook is an ad-based grievance processing platform. I am fascinated by these civic tech tools, especially <a href="http://pol.is" target="_blank">pol.is</a>. </div><div style="font-size:small"><br></div><div style="font-size:small">Pol.is basically runs huge town meetings and helps people build consensus over political divides. The US desperately needs to try these tools, and it's great to hear that you are working on this for US Congress. </div><div style="font-size:small"><br></div><div style="font-size:small">Taiwan uses them; I'm hoping to drag Audrey Tang, the brilliant digital minister of Taiwan who is an open-source hacker, onto this list. I wrote the piece below about civic tech in Taiwan and Estonia a few years ago. The text might be a little rosy (Audrey should come on the list and say if it is!) but it talks about some civic tech tools that people might not be familiar with. And it is long; feel free to skip it.</div><div style="font-size:small"><br></div><div style="font-size:small">-Kate Krauss</div><div style="font-size:small"><br></div><div style="font-size:small"><i>Tl;dr: Long opinion piece walks through civic tech as enacted in two very clever countries</i> </div><div style="font-size:small"><br></div><div style="font-size:small">
<p style="margin:0px;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-kerning:auto;font-feature-settings:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:12px;line-height:normal;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(33,33,33)">Taiwan withstands intense hacking and disinformation from the Chinese government (right next door), yet it has managed to build an ecosystem of inventive and useful tools that outmaneuver its more powerful neighbor. </p>
<p style="margin:0px;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-kerning:auto;font-feature-settings:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:12px;line-height:normal;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);min-height:14px"><br></p>
<p style="margin:0px;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-kerning:auto;font-feature-settings:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:12px;line-height:normal;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(33,33,33)">To counter disinformation, Taiwanese volunteers created <a href="https://cofacts.g0v.tw/" target="_blank"><span style="color:rgb(220,161,13)">CoFacts</span></a> (Collaborative Facts), a chatbot that allows people to ask questions about internet rumors without leaving their messaging app. Users instantly receive an even-handed analysis of what is true and false about the rumor, researched by vetted fact checkers similar to Wikipedia editors. </p>
<p style="margin:0px;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-kerning:auto;font-feature-settings:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:12px;line-height:normal;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);min-height:14px"><br></p>
<p style="margin:0px;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-kerning:auto;font-feature-settings:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:12px;line-height:normal;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(33,33,33)"><span style="text-decoration-line:underline;color:rgb(220,161,13)"><a href="https://pol.is/home" target="_blank">Pol.is</a></span> is an online platform that builds understanding between people with opposing views.<b> Developed in Seattle [!]</b> but fine-tuned for Taiwan, the platform allows people to present their own solutions to political problems, adding to and editing them to improve the ideas and find consensus. (<span style="color:rgb(13,13,13)">Pol.is also had a successful trial run in Bowling Green, Kentucky town meetings.)</span></p>
<p style="margin:0px;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-kerning:auto;font-feature-settings:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:12px;line-height:normal;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);min-height:14px"><br></p>
<p style="margin:0px;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-kerning:auto;font-feature-settings:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:12px;line-height:normal;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(33,33,33)">A Taiwanese tool called “Government Budget Maps” compares federal budget items to the price of lunch boxes, bubble tea, or space travel so that people can wrap their minds around the cost. Citizens are then invited to review and rate each item. </p>
<p style="margin:0px;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-kerning:auto;font-feature-settings:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:12px;line-height:normal;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);min-height:14px"><br></p>
<p style="margin:0px;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-kerning:auto;font-feature-settings:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:12px;line-height:normal;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(33,33,33)">These ideas, and many others, have emerged from Taiwan’s large and vibrant culture of civic hacking--a movement of volunteers, known as <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G0v" target="_blank"><span style="color:rgb(220,161,13)">G0V</span></a>, who work together to develop and adapt open source tools that advance democracy and keep the government accountable. G0V is building out <i>nonprofit</i> civic space. People can voice their opinions, but no one is trying to keep them on a platform at any cost, enrage them with false information, or introduce them to Nazis. </p>
<p style="margin:0px;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-kerning:auto;font-feature-settings:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:12px;line-height:normal;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);min-height:14px"><br></p>
<p style="margin:0px;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-kerning:auto;font-feature-settings:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:12px;line-height:normal;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(33,33,33)">Other countries are also innovating to evade trouble online. Estonia, the tiny democracy wedged between Russia and the Baltic Sea, <a href="https://www.csmonitor.com/World/Europe/2020/0204/Cybersecurity-2020-What-Estonia-knows-about-thwarting-Russians" target="_blank"><span style="color:rgb(220,161,13)">has fought back</span></a> against Russia's hacking of its bank, government agencies, press, and power grid. Advocates formed the CyberDefense League, enlisting hundreds of volunteers--teachers, lawyers, software developers, even priests--to protect the country from Russian cyberattacks. The CyberDefense League organizes emergency drills--fake disasters--that teach the government and citizenry how to prepare for, and counter, cyberattacks. They also teach ordinary people to protect themselves online. </p><p style="margin:0px;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-kerning:auto;font-feature-settings:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:12px;line-height:normal;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(33,33,33)"><br></p>
<p style="margin:0px;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-kerning:auto;font-feature-settings:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:12px;line-height:normal;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(33,33,33)">Estonia convinced NATO to run joint cyberdefense exercises, drawing thousands of participants from more than two dozen countries. The country <a href="https://govinsider.asia/cyber-futures/heli-tiirmaa-klaar-lessons-from-estonias-cyber-ambassador/" target="_blank"><span style="color:rgb(220,161,13)">named an ambassador-at-large</span></a> for cybersecurity in 2018 (Taiwan has a digital minister). Every highschool student in Estonia is required to enroll in a 35-hour class on media and disinformation. </p>
<p style="margin:0px;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-kerning:auto;font-feature-settings:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:12px;line-height:normal;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);min-height:14px"><br></p>
<p style="margin:0px;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-kerning:auto;font-feature-settings:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:12px;line-height:normal;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(33,33,33)">These strategies are working: When Russia hacked the Ukraine in a 2017 attack that spread to 64 other countries, Estonia was largely untouched. [I wrote this in 2020 so not sure how Estonia is doing now -Kate]</p>
<p style="margin:0px;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-kerning:auto;font-feature-settings:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:12px;line-height:normal;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);min-height:14px"><br></p>
<p style="margin:0px;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-kerning:auto;font-feature-settings:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:12px;line-height:normal;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(33,33,33)">In the US, open source civic hacking groups have made inroads in streamlining US government processes [go, Lorelei!], but for-profit companies still dominate the public square.</p>
<p style="margin:0px;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-kerning:auto;font-feature-settings:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:12px;line-height:normal;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);min-height:14px"><br></p>
<p style="margin:0px;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-kerning:auto;font-feature-settings:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:12px;line-height:normal;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(33,33,33)">[My obvious point] Americans lack nonprofit, large-scale, online civic space in which to discuss ideas, read articles, or watch videos without being manipulated by profit-making algorithms. Instead, Facebook and others send us content that provokes us, because research shows this keeps us online. The longer we scroll, the more information we reveal that the company can monetize for ads. Facebook alone made $134 billion this way in 2023. </p><p style="margin:0px;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-kerning:auto;font-feature-settings:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:12px;line-height:normal;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(33,33,33)"><br></p><p style="margin:0px;font:12px Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);min-height:14px"><br></p><p style="margin:0px;font:12px Arial;color:rgb(33,33,33)">So what can the US do? We must move open source, nonprofit, democracy-oriented software projects from the sidelines to the center of American life and its public square. Congress, which already funds some software development—and private foundations—can scale up funding and promote projects that support everything from civic hackathons to publicly-minded discussion platforms. </p><p style="margin:0px;font:12px Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);min-height:14px"><br></p><p style="margin:0px;font:12px Arial;color:rgb(33,33,33)">Facebook was never built to promote democracy. The company’s central value and operating principle has always been growth--to get as big as possible as fast as possible. Rather than speculating about Facebook’s latest content moderation disaster [although actually we have to do that] or analyze Mark Zuckerberg’s personality, let’s learn from other countries that prioritize nonprofit, online civic life. </p><p style="margin:0px;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-kerning:auto;font-feature-settings:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:12px;line-height:normal;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(33,33,33)">---</p>
<p style="margin:0px;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-kerning:auto;font-feature-settings:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:12px;line-height:normal;font-family:Arial;color:rgb(0,0,0);min-height:14px"><br></p></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Apr 22, 2024 at 3:42 PM Lorelei Kelly <<a href="mailto:loreleikelly@gmail.com" target="_blank">loreleikelly@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">hi, seeing if this thread goes through this time! <br><div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">---------- Forwarded message ---------<br>From: <b class="gmail_sendername" dir="auto">Lorelei Kelly</b> <span dir="auto"><<a href="mailto:loreleikelly@gmail.com" target="_blank">loreleikelly@gmail.com</a>></span><br>Date: Mon, Apr 22, 2024 at 3:00 PM<br>Subject: Re: [liberationtech] Liberation Tech would like a word.<br>To: Kate Krauss <<a href="mailto:katiephr@gmail.com" target="_blank">katiephr@gmail.com</a>><br>Cc: liberationtech <<a href="mailto:liberationtech@lists.stanford.edu" target="_blank">liberationtech@lists.stanford.edu</a>><br></div><br><br><div dir="ltr"><div>deliberative technology could take many different forms <a href="http://pol.is" target="_blank">pol.is</a> remesh, Zoom, Cortico Fora...online Town Hall Models, Citizen Assemblies, mini publics... <br></div><div>what's interesting to me is how the Right to petition function of Congress (First Amendment duty) was basically offshored in the 1940s to the Executive Branch, thereby depriving Congress of its internal barometer of the American people-- it gave the President power at the expense of the legislature, and allowed the public grievance processing space to languish or be privatized (Facebook). Now much access is purchased via lobbying...and advocacy... the rest of us are left to vote occasionally or protest or spiral into frustration and even apathy (very dangerous)... Grievance processing on top of an advertising platform is one of the major drivers of dysfunction IMHO. And that's not even mentioning the Putin ad buys. It has been a disaster for democracy, but specifically for institutions like Congress whose communications standards were literally stuck in the Pony Express until 2020. Here's <a href="https://thehill.com/opinion/civil-rights/3985778-to-protect-democracy-from-machines-congress-must-modernize-our-constitutional-right-to-petition/" target="_blank">an article that explains </a>this big picture framing. <br></div><div><br></div><div>We have to actually change alot of laborious and byzantine rules, even laws to allow Congress to function in the modern world. It has many pockets of Civil War era technology like an 1860s document format. Fixing this is an institutional long game--the Right Wing has been much more successful at eliminating public infrastructure and then occupying/capturing it, selling it off to friends and cronies or corporations (or flooding the zone with shit aka Bannon's plan) The Left, as far as I can tell has no competitive institutional plan. Centrists tend to not be supported by outside or adjacent orgs. </div><div><br></div><div>our dysfunction re: tech and institutions is partly because the first generation of technologies on social media fit into campaigning needs, not governing, which requires slow moving, slow thinking and deliberation. Its one reason why governing looks like campaigning now. The whole incentive system is streamlined for it. Citizens United in 2010 allowed unlimited dark money into the blood stream of democracy. We have to change this incentive. Americans need to fall in love with their governing institutions again. They are so beleaguered and brittle. And this needs to be paid for by taxpayer dollars,facilitated by philanthropy, not privatized. Democracy is not a pro bono project or a side gig that you think about while building a Mars rocket-- Scorn for institutions is one of the reasons I left Silicon Valley (where I was born!) and have never looked back. <br></div><br></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Apr 22, 2024 at 1:10 PM Kate Krauss <<a href="mailto:katiephr@gmail.com" target="_blank">katiephr@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div style="font-size:small">This is so interesting. Thanks for sharing your fascinating insights into the dynamics right now in US Congress. I can't believe we've found an optimist! :)</div><div style="font-size:small"><br></div><div style="font-size:small">What sorts of things are you working on in this regard: "how to integrate new forms of deliberative technology into the workflow of members so there is a flow of authentic, productive, constituent driven feedback." What sorts of deliberative technology? </div><div style="font-size:small"><br></div><div style="font-size:small">In modernizing, what kinds of unmodern things go wrong, and what direction are you going in fixing them? Also very interested to hear about AI and LLMs in the House (seems like a Saturday Night Live skit, but also, the future!). </div><div style="font-size:small"><br></div><div style="font-size:small">Thanks again,</div><div style="font-size:small"><br></div><div style="font-size:small">-Kate</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Apr 22, 2024 at 12:33 PM Lorelei Kelly <<a href="mailto:loreleikelly@gmail.com" target="_blank">loreleikelly@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div>hi, thanks for the note. <br></div><div>I'm glad to see this list momentum effort! We need it! <br></div><div>I lead the modernizing Congress portfolio at Georgetown and I'm still working adjacent to the US Congress with the members and committees who are behind this effort-- The House has passed 202 reform and modernization recommendations. It is truly an unprecedented and historic push forward. I'm now helping implement the more difficult ones that include a social cohesion aspect. (i.e. how to we integrate new forms of deliberative technology into the workflow of members so there is a flow of authentic, productive, constituent driven feedback) Also we have gotten ahead of the curve on AI and LLMs in the House at least. I'm proud of this old institution, even though its looking like a three ring circus in the news. I think the Mike Johnson success on Ukraine funding is a very interesting turning point for looking at democracy as transcendent critical infrastructure (backed up by pandemic measures to go remote and then J6 reactions to look at the information systems on Capitol Hill as national security priorities) We have begun to marginalize deviant behavior through the process and this is a good, emergent, systems way to make sense of it. <br></div><div>Very interesting time for all of this. <br></div><div>LK<br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Apr 22, 2024 at 12:19 PM Kate Krauss <<a href="mailto:katiephr@gmail.com" target="_blank">katiephr@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div style="font-size:small">Hi!</div><div style="font-size:small"><br>We didn't move the list, or change its name (Liberation Tech) but we did supply a link which works (after fixing a technical glitch) that you can share with new people who might want to join. </div><div style="font-size:small"><br></div><div style="font-size:small">Cheers,</div><div style="font-size:small"><br>Kate</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Apr 22, 2024 at 12:12 PM Undescribed Horrific Abuse, One Victim & Survivor of Many <<a href="mailto:gmkarl@gmail.com" target="_blank">gmkarl@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">> > Hi, I’m confused, what about the list this email was sent to (<a href="mailto:lt@lists.liberationtech.org" target="_blank">lt@lists.liberationtech.org</a>) ?<br>
> ><br>
> > What does the “subscribe” link in this email have to do with that list?<br>
> ><br>
> > Is it a different list? The same list? Is <a href="mailto:lt@lists.liberationtech.org" target="_blank">lt@lists.liberationtech.org</a> still alive or being moved?<br>
> ><br>
> > Very confused,<br>
> > Greg<br>
><br>
> I'd like to relate that some communities have been both disrupted and<br>
> defended by influences skilled in social manipulation, and that one<br>
> attribute of that is changing the environment.<br>
><br>
> Changing an environment can help change, whether overt or covert, be<br>
> adopted more readily. It can separate both from harm and fear as well<br>
> as familiarity and community.<br>
><br>
> It's pleasant that changing the list name could help people feel safer<br>
> from any trauma associated with the old list, and help anything<br>
> targeting the old list have a little trouble finding the new people.<br>
><br>
> I hope that everybody who was affiliated with the old list succeeds in<br>
> finding the new one, but I know there will be people who don't.<br>
><br>
> Some communities often have to move in order to survive well. This<br>
> does sadly often mean leaving people behind.<br>
><br>
> Crazy Karl (I think I have OSDD from technologically-facilitated abuse!)<br>
<br>
Apologies, I did not realize it was the _same_ list the subscribe link<br>
was sent to.<br>
<br>
I had assumed by context that this was a new list.<br>
</blockquote></div>
-- <br>
Liberationtech is public & archives are searchable from any major commercial search engine. Violations of list guidelines will get you moderated: <a href="https://lists.ghserv.net/mailman/listinfo/lt" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.ghserv.net/mailman/listinfo/lt</a>. Unsubscribe, change to digest mode, or change password by emailing <a href="mailto:lt-owner@lists.liberationtech.org" target="_blank">lt-owner@lists.liberationtech.org</a>.<br>
</blockquote></div><br clear="all"><br><span class="gmail_signature_prefix">-- </span><br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><b><div><p style="white-space:pre-wrap;line-height:1.2;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><font size="3" face="Arial" color="#6eaddc">Lorelei Kelly</font></p><font size="3" face="Arial" color="#6eaddc"><span>Research Lead, <a href="https://beeckcenter.georgetown.edu/project/modernizing-congress/" target="_blank">Congressional Modernization</a></span></font></div></b><b><div><p style="white-space:pre-wrap;line-height:1.2;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><font size="3" face="Arial" color="#6eaddc">Founder, Georgetown Democracy, Education + Service (GeoDES)<br></font></p><br></div></b><div><div><div><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div></div>
</blockquote></div><br clear="all"><br><span class="gmail_signature_prefix">-- </span><br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><b><div><p style="white-space:pre-wrap;line-height:1.2;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><font size="3" face="Arial" color="#6eaddc">Lorelei Kelly</font></p><font size="3" face="Arial" color="#6eaddc"><span>Research Lead, <a href="https://beeckcenter.georgetown.edu/project/modernizing-congress/" target="_blank">Congressional Modernization</a></span></font></div></b><b><div><p style="white-space:pre-wrap;line-height:1.2;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><font size="3" face="Arial" color="#6eaddc">Founder, Georgetown Democracy, Education + Service (GeoDES)<br></font></p><br></div></b><div><div><div><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
</div><br clear="all"><br><span class="gmail_signature_prefix">-- </span><br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><b><div><p style="white-space:pre-wrap;line-height:1.2;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><font size="3" face="Arial" color="#6eaddc">Lorelei Kelly</font></p><font size="3" face="Arial" color="#6eaddc"><span>Research Lead, <a href="https://beeckcenter.georgetown.edu/project/modernizing-congress/" target="_blank">Congressional Modernization</a></span></font></div></b><b><div><p style="white-space:pre-wrap;line-height:1.2;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><font size="3" face="Arial" color="#6eaddc">Founder, Georgetown Democracy, Education + Service (GeoDES)<br></font></p><br></div></b><div><div><div><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
-- <br>
Liberationtech is public & archives are searchable from any major commercial search engine. Violations of list guidelines will get you moderated: <a href="https://lists.ghserv.net/mailman/listinfo/lt" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.ghserv.net/mailman/listinfo/lt</a>. Unsubscribe, change to digest mode, or change password by emailing <a href="mailto:lt-owner@lists.liberationtech.org" target="_blank">lt-owner@lists.liberationtech.org</a>.<br>
</blockquote></div>
</div>
-- <br>
Liberationtech is public & archives are searchable from any major commercial search engine. Violations of list guidelines will get you moderated: <a href="https://lists.ghserv.net/mailman/listinfo/lt" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.ghserv.net/mailman/listinfo/lt</a>. Unsubscribe, change to digest mode, or change password by emailing <a href="mailto:lt-owner@lists.liberationtech.org" target="_blank">lt-owner@lists.liberationtech.org</a>.<br>
</blockquote></div><br clear="all"><div><br></div><span class="gmail_signature_prefix">-- </span><br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><br style="color:rgb(34,34,34)"><div dir="ltr" style="color:rgb(34,34,34)"><div dir="ltr"><p style="line-height:1.2;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style="color:rgb(68,68,68)"><span style="font-size:10pt;background-color:transparent;font-weight:700;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap"><font face="Arial">Warmest Regards</font></span></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height:1.2;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><span style="color:rgb(68,68,68)"><span style="font-size:10pt;background-color:transparent;font-weight:700;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap"><br>Daylon Soh<br></span></span></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height:1.2;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style="color:rgb(68,68,68)"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial;background-color:transparent;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap"><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">Founder & General Manager<br></span><br>
</span><a href="https://curiouscore.com/?utm_source=signature&utm_medium=email" target="_blank"><img width="200" height="25"></a><br><br></span></p><p dir="ltr" style="line-height:1.2;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span><font color="#444444">Golden Mile Tower, </font><span style="color:rgb(68,68,68)">6001 Beach Rd, #15-09 <br></span></span><span style="color:rgb(68,68,68)">Singapore 199589</span><br></p><p style="line-height:1.2;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><span style="color:rgb(68,68,68)">Tel: 6591 8672</span></p><p style="line-height:1.2;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><b><a href="http://curiouscore.com/" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)" target="_blank"><span style="color:rgb(68,68,68)"></span></a><a>curiouscore.com</a></b></p><p style="line-height:1.2;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><b><br></b></p><p style="line-height:1.2;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt">2022 Winner of <a href="https://atc.sg/sme-500-business-promising-entrepreneur-singapore-emerging-brand-award.php" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)" target="_blank">Singapore SME 500</a> & <a href="https://soe.org.sg/soe-awards/" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)" target="_blank">Spirit of Enterprise</a> Awards<br></p></div></div></div></div></div>
<span>-- </span><br><span>Liberationtech is public & archives are searchable from any major commercial search engine. Violations of list guidelines will get you moderated: <a href="https://lists.ghserv.net/mailman/listinfo/lt" target="_blank">https://lists.ghserv.net/mailman/listinfo/lt</a>. Unsubscribe, change to digest mode, or change password by emailing <a href="mailto:lt-owner@lists.liberationtech.org" target="_blank">lt-owner@lists.liberationtech.org</a>.</span><br></div></blockquote></div></div></div>-- <br>
Liberationtech is public & archives are searchable from any major commercial search engine. Violations of list guidelines will get you moderated: <a href="https://lists.ghserv.net/mailman/listinfo/lt" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.ghserv.net/mailman/listinfo/lt</a>. Unsubscribe, change to digest mode, or change password by emailing <a href="mailto:lt-owner@lists.liberationtech.org" target="_blank">lt-owner@lists.liberationtech.org</a>.<br>
</blockquote></div></div>