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<p>> BTC is not decentralized, that is pure propaganda. While the
ledger itself is decentralized in theory, Network effects have led
to the creation of mining cartels and the practical difficulties
of managing crypto and the cost of transactions have led to most
of the float being held on exchanges.</p>
<p>I forgot about that too, and I think it was the strongest point.
I think technologists should stop thinking about technology in a
vacuum, and instead think about how the technology fits within
society, and how social/political effects like the one you
mentioned can steer the technology in unintended directions. Big
Tech in particular is really insidious about this and their
indifference towards society is despicable. At any rate, any
technologist who pretends they can fix the world's problems with
technology and completely ignore social/political effects is
selling you snake oil. That much I have already learned.<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 5/23/21 12:51 PM, Marc Sunet wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:b1fb01db-65c5-45d3-7b90-154006c00327@shellblade.net">
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<p>Very fair points, thank you. And the history lesson was a good
one too.</p>
<p>I would not want to pretend I have the technical expertise to
question anything you said, and I have the same opinion on the
morality side of things. That being said, cybersecurity is more
expensive than spreading FUD like you said in the previous
email, and it's clear that that is what is keeping corporate
media busy these days. Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies
enable/boost schemes like ransomware for sure, but USD, and
currencies before it, have also been an enabler of crime for the
longest. It's not like any of the crimes you mentioned are new.
Yet the corporate media, of course, chooses to mostly ignore
that fact, because they have a political agenda to further. So
my criticism (and I think part of grarpamp's email) is that the
media is only looking at the side of the coin that best serves
its interests, not educating/informing people (I guess that
would be a first.)<br>
</p>
<p>You also ask "who lies on that scale?" and seem to be very
fixated with Trump. But US governments before and after him have
and will continue to do so. I don't think this point
necessitates much explanation? For what it's worth, Biden so far
hasn't done much to protect journalists and undo Trump's
policies in that regard. Those are precisely the people who can
uncover truth:</p>
<p><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://freedom.press/news/biden-defends-trump-surveillance-of-reporters/"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://freedom.press/news/biden-defends-trump-surveillance-of-reporters/</a><br>
</p>
<p><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://freedom.press/news/biden-justice-end-assange-prosecution-coalition-letter/"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://freedom.press/news/biden-justice-end-assange-prosecution-coalition-letter/</a></p>
<p><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2021/02/amnesty-international-joins-civil-liberties-groups-to-ask-biden-to-drop-case-against-julian-assange/"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2021/02/amnesty-international-joins-civil-liberties-groups-to-ask-biden-to-drop-case-against-julian-assange/</a></p>
<p>And for what it's worth, Ethereum is switching to PoS soon.
That should at least address their energy waste?<br>
</p>
<p><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://blog.ethereum.org/2021/05/18/country-power-no-more/"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://blog.ethereum.org/2021/05/18/country-power-no-more/</a><br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 5/23/21 10:41 AM, Phillip
Hallam-Baker wrote:<br>
</div>
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cite="mid:CAMm+LwhR7_rkE7oF5ecWQX0+uOgjqr+37y7xjF98QLxKbaaDaA@mail.gmail.com">
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<div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"><br>
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<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, May 23, 2021
at 2:06 AM Marc Sunet <<a
href="mailto:msunet@shellblade.net"
moz-do-not-send="true">msunet@shellblade.net</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px
0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p>So what specifically is immoral about
cryptocurrencies in your opinion?</p>
<p>Also, throwing grarpamp in the Trump sack was a
bit out of the blue? He had some good points if
you just ignore the writing style. Some groups are
ringing bells about cashless societies, for
example (last link in Spanish):</p>
<p><a
href="https://www.theguardian.com/money/2020/jun/24/you-cant-pay-cash-here-how-cashless-society-harms-most-vulnerable"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.theguardian.com/money/2020/jun/24/you-cant-pay-cash-here-how-cashless-society-harms-most-vulnerable</a></p>
<p><a
href="https://collateralbits.net/la-maldicion-del-dinero/"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://collateralbits.net/la-maldicion-del-dinero/</a></p>
<p>This mailing list always turns hostile for no
reason. Since you are experts, why not educate
people when somebody raises a point here?</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">Well
first off, this is not the only list on which grarpamp
has shared his opinions. I have found him to be long
on accusatory language (everyone I don't like is a
statist) and short on facts. He stopped posting on the
Cryptography list after being repeatedly schooled for
stating that professional cryptographers with decades
of experience who have been discussing BTC since it
was launched there need to 'educate themselves'. </div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">I
find accusing people of being statists, pro
government, etc. as a bullying tactic. That is all
grarpamp has and its all Trump ever had. Use Trumper
tactics, get thrown in the Trump sack, seems fair to
me. </div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">The
aggressive gaslighting and coinsplaining is of course
entirely self interested. Anyone who holds BitCoin is
by definition a person with a vested interest in
finding a greater fool to sell their cowrie shells
onto. That is the second reason to throw them in the
Trump sack - they are con artists trying to put your
money in their pockets. I don't think that is moral
behavior.</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">I am
a big fan of the cashless society, I have spent a
large part of my 29 year career in designing and
deploying payment systems. I have been trying to
develop a micropayments scheme for buying Web content
since 1992. None of the current ledger bases schemes
is remotely close to serving that need with the
possible exception of Dogecoin which can't meet that
need at scale. </div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">And
here we get to the fact that the only thing we have
learned about BitCoin after 12 years of deployment
experience is that it is impossible to change the
deployed infrastructure. We are long past the early
days of criminal-currencies. What you see now is all
you are going to get. Repeated attempts to change the
infrastructure have failed. So the fact that it costs
$22 to make a BTC transaction today is really
significant. That is vastly more than any other
payment system except SWIFT. And if you factor in the
cost of converting hard currency into and out of BTC,
the cost of using BTC to make an uninsured,
irrevocable transfer is five to ten times the cost of
an insured transfer via SWIFT and vastly more than
other means.</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">So
this is a ruinously expensive payment system that
cannot be improved after deployment. Does it provide
any advantages? Not unless you want to buy drugs,
images of children being raped, collect ransomware
extortion or evade exchange controls. The only selling
point of BTC as a payment scheme is that it enables
criminal behavior. And with the exception of evading
exchange controls, the criminal behavior in question
is despicable.</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">BTC
is not decentralized, that is pure propaganda. While
the ledger itself is decentralized in theory, Network
effects have led to the creation of mining cartels and
the practical difficulties of managing crypto and the
cost of transactions have led to most of the float
being held on exchanges.</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">None
of the criminality is acknowledged by BitCoin
boosters. They poo-poo the fact that BTC accounts for
a negligible fraction of global commerce and the
majority of major financial frauds. One-coin
Quadrifinex, Mount Gox, The most profitable way to run
an exchange is to run it as a Ponzi scheme.</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">Nor
is the fact that proof of waste is a despicable
principle on which to assign value. The
criminal-currency world creates no value. They consume
more electricity than the entire nation of Argentina.
They can't argue with that fact so they instead
pretend that the miners are using renewable energy, a
flat out lie. Who else lies on that scale? Well Trump
of course, back in the Trump sack again. </div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">There
is much more that could be said on the immorality of
criminal currencies but the verdict is clear: These
are despicable instruments being peddled by
despicable, greedy people who cloak their immorality
with fine talk of 'freedom' and vicious personal
attacks on anyone who dares tell the truth. </div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small"><br>
</div>
</div>
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