<div dir="ltr"><div>Couldn't we just look at what pages people spend the most time with? The amount of advertising. The percentage of commercial sites vs. non-commercial. I didn't think that corporate and state domination of the internet was in dispute.<br></div><div><br></div><div>But I don't think we could point to one person! There are plenty of local fiefdoms ruled not just by corporations (although money I assume plays a massive role) China and Russia, etc. <br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 9:08 AM Karl <<a href="mailto:gmkarl@gmail.com">gmkarl@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto"><div>Doug,<div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">It sounds like you're aware of the internet being solely corporate-dominated.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">If we had proof that someone were algorithmically ensuring that the internet stayed corporate-dominated, do you know of a way to preserve and possibly publicize such proof?</div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, May 5, 2020, 11:49 AM Doug Schuler <<a href="mailto:douglas@publicsphereproject.org" target="_blank">douglas@publicsphereproject.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div>Technology absolutely has politics since it's embedded within social (and material) contexts. I like Langdon's quote in the Whale and the Reactor: "Because choices tend to become strongly fixed in material equipment, economic investment, and social habit, the original flexibility vanishes for all practical purposes once the initial commitments are made." <br></div><div><br></div><div>On the other hand, technology is not strictly deterministic. A hospital can be used to help heal people or it can be used to imprison them and to perform experiments on them. Television doesn't have to be a solely corporate dominated medium nor does the internet — but they are. <br></div><div><br></div><div>— Doug</div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 7:39 AM Aram Sinnreich <<a href="mailto:aramsinnreich@gmail.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">aramsinnreich@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">What do you make of Langdon Winner's work, arguing that sociotechnical artifacts have inherent "politics?"<br>
<br>
Sent from my iPhone<br>
<br>
> On May 5, 2020, at 10:33 AM, grarpamp <<a href="mailto:grarpamp@gmail.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">grarpamp@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> <br>
> Technology is but an agnostic tool.<br>
> There is no such thing as a liberation tech,<br>
> only applied tech via paths toward something.<br>
> One cannot apply a tech toward liberation<br>
> without first considering what a state of being<br>
> of actual liberation might variously be about,<br>
> to know where to go, what to make with the tech.<br>
> Democracy being nothing more than a<br>
> decentralized form of the murderous dictators<br>
> many claim to be liberating themselves or people from,<br>
> both forms hardly a state of liberation at all,<br>
> yet worshipped and profferred by all too many,<br>
> we therefore continue this random series<br>
> on path choices...<br>
> <br>
> How to be a tyrant. Sound Familiar?<br>
> <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4LtEciQUF8" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4LtEciQUF8</a><br>
> <br>
> Deep Divers, let the balloon go!<br>
> <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UbX-Bvb2u_w" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UbX-Bvb2u_w</a><br>
> <br>
> <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_U3lEc-IFr8" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_U3lEc-IFr8</a><br>
> <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWLntHoTgDA" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWLntHoTgDA</a><br>
> <br>
> -- <br>
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Liberationtech is public & archives are searchable from any major commercial search engine. Violations of list guidelines will get you moderated: <a href="https://lists.ghserv.net/mailman/listinfo/lt" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.ghserv.net/mailman/listinfo/lt</a>. Unsubscribe, change to digest mode, or change password by emailing <a href="mailto:lt-owner@lists.liberationtech.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">lt-owner@lists.liberationtech.org</a>.</blockquote></div><br clear="all"><br>-- <br><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><span style="color:rgb(80,0,80);border-collapse:separate"><span style="border-collapse:separate;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><div><div style="font-size:12px">Douglas Schuler</div><div style="font-size:12px"><a href="mailto:douglas@publicsphereproject.org" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">douglas@publicsphereproject.org</a></div><div style="font-size:12px">Twitter: @doug_schuler</div><div style="font-size:12px"><br></div><div style="font-size:12px">------------------------------------------------------------------------------</div></div></span>Public Sphere Project<span style="border-collapse:separate;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><div><div style="font-size:12px"> <a href="http://www.publicsphereproject.org/" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.publicsphereproject.org/</a></div></div></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;font-size:12px"><br></span><div style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">Mailing list ~ Collective Intelligence for the Common Good</div><div> <font color="#4787ff"><u><span> <a href="http://lists.scn.org/mailman/listinfo/ci" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.scn.org/mailman/listinfo/ci</a></span><span>4cg-announce</span></u></font></div><div style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"> </div><div style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">Creating the World Citizen Parliament</div> <span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;border-collapse:separate"><a href="http://interactions.acm.org/archive/view/may-june-2013/creating-the-world-citizen-parliament" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://interactions.acm.org/archive/view/may-june-2013/creating-the-world-citizen-parliament</a><div> </div></span>Liberating Voices! A Pattern Language for Communication Revolution (project) <div> <a href="http://www.publicsphereproject.org/patterns/" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.publicsphereproject.org/patterns/lv</a></div><div><br></div>Liberating Voices! A Pattern Language for Communication Revolution (book) <div> <a href="http://mitpress.mit.edu/catalog/item/default.asp?ttype=2&tid=11601" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://mitpress.mit.edu/catalog/item/default.asp?ttype=2&tid=11601</a></div></span></div></div></div></div>
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Liberationtech is public & archives are searchable from any major commercial search engine. Violations of list guidelines will get you moderated: <a href="https://lists.ghserv.net/mailman/listinfo/lt" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.ghserv.net/mailman/listinfo/lt</a>. Unsubscribe, change to digest mode, or change password by emailing <a href="mailto:lt-owner@lists.liberationtech.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">lt-owner@lists.liberationtech.org</a>.</blockquote></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div><br clear="all"><br>-- <br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><span style="color:rgb(80,0,80);border-collapse:separate"><span style="border-collapse:separate;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><div><div style="font-size:12px">Douglas Schuler</div><div style="font-size:12px"><a href="mailto:douglas@publicsphereproject.org" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)" target="_blank">douglas@publicsphereproject.org</a></div><div style="font-size:12px">Twitter: @doug_schuler</div><div style="font-size:12px"><br></div><div style="font-size:12px">------------------------------------------------------------------------------</div></div></span>Public Sphere Project<span style="border-collapse:separate;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><div><div style="font-size:12px"> <a href="http://www.publicsphereproject.org/" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)" target="_blank">http://www.publicsphereproject.org/</a></div></div></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;font-size:12px"><br></span><div style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">Mailing list ~ Collective Intelligence for the Common Good</div><div> <font color="#4787ff"><u><span> <a href="http://lists.scn.org/mailman/listinfo/ci" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)" target="_blank">http://lists.scn.org/mailman/listinfo/ci</a></span><span>4cg-announce</span></u></font></div><div style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"> </div><div style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">Creating the World Citizen Parliament</div> <span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;border-collapse:separate"><a href="http://interactions.acm.org/archive/view/may-june-2013/creating-the-world-citizen-parliament" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)" target="_blank">http://interactions.acm.org/archive/view/may-june-2013/creating-the-world-citizen-parliament</a><div> </div></span>Liberating Voices! A Pattern Language for Communication Revolution (project) <div> <a href="http://www.publicsphereproject.org/patterns/" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)" target="_blank">http://www.publicsphereproject.org/patterns/lv</a></div><div><br></div>Liberating Voices! A Pattern Language for Communication Revolution (book) <div> <a href="http://mitpress.mit.edu/catalog/item/default.asp?ttype=2&tid=11601" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)" target="_blank">http://mitpress.mit.edu/catalog/item/default.asp?ttype=2&tid=11601</a></div></span></div></div></div></div>