<div dir="ltr"><div><br></div><div>I think that in the 1920's when (I think) polling was invented it was thought that the politicians would use it to guide their actions... Of course that's not the way it came out.</div><div><br></div><div>Civil society can use "polling" in various ways but it still won't / can't substitute for political will — quality and quantity — to fight well-resourced efforts. (I'd substitute civic intelligence for political will because to me "will" is just one element of intelligence. )</div><div><br></div><div>— Doug</div><div><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, Jan 12, 2020 at 3:15 PM Andrés Leopoldo Pacheco Sanfuentes <<a href="mailto:alps6085@gmail.com">alps6085@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto">Polling? Really? Well, that’s the basis of marketing, and there’s a whole “science” about “modulating the masses” that makes “polling” a moot indicator of “the will of the people!”<div><br></div><div>References:</div><div><br></div><div>The good friendly well-meaning wonderful Noam Chomsky said somewhere about the power of “public opinion,” but of course he didn’t say anything about the “modulation” of such “public opinion” by the marketing empire, although he most likely read Gilles Deleuze’s brilliant and SUCCINCT (an incredible feat for a french theorist) essay, “Postsctipt on The Societies of Control” - maybe that’s it- it wasn’t an essay just a “postscript!”</div><div><br></div><div><a href="http://home.lu.lv/~ruben/Deleuze%20-%20Postscript%20On%20The%20Societies%20Of%20Control.pdf" target="_blank">http://home.lu.lv/~ruben/Deleuze%20-%20Postscript%20On%20The%20Societies%20Of%20Control.pdf</a><br><div><br><div dir="ltr">Regards / Saludos / Grato<div><br></div><div>Andrés Leopoldo Pacheco Sanfuentes</div></div><div dir="ltr"><br><blockquote type="cite">On Jan 12, 2020, at 1:07 PM, Rand Strauss <<a href="mailto:rand@peoplecount.org" target="_blank">rand@peoplecount.org</a>> wrote:<br><br></blockquote></div><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><font size="2">I did reject any <b>empirical determination</b>. But I didn’t mean to. I reject the <b>current</b> empirical determinations, judging legislative outcomes vs polled desires. Better (and more expensive) would be a comparison of legislative outcomes to the desires of people involved in deliberative democracy exercises. But for this to work, the participants would also have to know that their desires at the end of the exercises would be taken as indicative of the nation’s- they’d need to feel responsible for shaping their future.</font><div><font size="2"><br></font></div><div><font size="2">This might be a <b>good metric for how democratic a political system is</b>- polling people to ask them: How much do your desires guide national legislation? I suspect it’s similar in America’s to our 20% approval rating of Congress, a bit high due to people’s lack of being well informed- that is, these people are happier. That suggests another metric: How much responsibility do you have to guide political decisions that decide your country’s future? In particular, how much responsibility daily, weekly or monthly?<br></font><div><font size="2"><br></font></div><div><font size="2"><b>Mostly I reject limiting the conversation to existing political systems</b>. While this is valuable basic work, I believe there are no good ones yet, so this limit cuts off possibilities. People seem very reluctant to consider changes or additions. They quickly become negative, like on this list someone said, "But who’ll moderate the moderator?" instead of asking, "How can we ensure moderation isn’t biased?"</font></div><div><font size="2"><br></font></div><div><font size="2">As someone else said, the existing political systems with better results are smaller and have amore homogeneous citizenry. This lessens the diversity of viewpoint allowing a poor political system to work well enough. It’d be like measuring the quality of road maintenance systems and ranking highly the country that lives is a completely flat region.<br></font><div><div><font size="2"><br></font></div><div><font size="2"><br></font></div><div><font size="2">I propose <b>augmenting America’s political system</b> with a communication system where voters have <b>two new political responsibilities</b>, with respect to accountability. If you read the </font><a href="https://blog.peoplecount.org/accountability/what-is-political-accountability/" target="_blank">links I sent</a><font size="2"> (and if so, I don’t know- you’re welcome to send me feedback or acknowledgement), you know that political accountability is basically a relationship where the voters tell politicians what to do and then receive and judge their reports. To act together, voters must also communicate to each other what they want and their judgements. Atop this, much, much more is possible, but this would create the first democratic political system that actually has a sufficient foundation to work.</font></div><div><font size="2"><br></font></div><div><font size="2">The crux of this system is that i<b>t gives citizens ongoing responsibility</b> with respect to government- as much or as little as they want. While it isn’t entirely equitable, favoring people more competent at these tasks and those with more time, I believe it <i>can</i> provide the peaceful revolution in governance that humanity so desperately needs.</font></div><div><font size="2"><br></font></div><div><font size="2">I could go on about how this solves almost every current political problem, or leads to its solution, but the above is probably already too much… (There’s plenty written about this- I seem to lack the ability to put it into a book, though…)</font></div><div><font size="2">-r</font></div><div><font size="2"><br></font></div><div><br></div><div><div><blockquote type="cite"><div>On Jan 12, 2020, at 1:23 AM, David Stodolsky <<a href="mailto:dss@socialinformatics.org" target="_blank">dss@socialinformatics.org</a>> wrote:</div><br><div><div style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><br><br><blockquote type="cite"><div>On 12 Jan 2020, at 02:25, Rand Strauss <<a href="mailto:Rand@PeopleCount.org" target="_blank">Rand@PeopleCount.org</a>> wrote:</div><br><div><div style="overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div><blockquote type="cite" style="font-family:Palatino-Roman;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><div style="overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div><div><div><div style="overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div style="overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div>Direct democracy and generally direct action assumes an interaction between an individual and a state of the world / physical object. So, the above definition is limited to a republican form of governance. It isn’t possible to compare two things, if the definitional frame eliminates one from consideration.</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><font style="font-family:Palatino-Roman;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none" color="#00afcd"><span><br></span></font><span style="font-family:Palatino-Roman;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline">We’re not comparing "two things." We’re looking at how democratic current political systems are. Republics aim to be democratic as well as constitutional. They can be evaluated along both axes. They can be evaluated along other axes as well as others, such as how free they are, or how equitable they are, though these aren’t part of the explicit definition of "republic"…</span><br style="font-family:Palatino-Roman;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><span style="font-family:Palatino-Roman;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline">-r</span><br style="font-family:Palatino-Roman;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"></div></div></div></blockquote></div><div style="font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;font-family:Palatino-Roman"><br></div><div style="font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;font-family:Palatino-Roman">We are not looking at how democratic systems are. You specifically rejected any empirical determination and you reject the theoretical distinction I presented. My question is how to operationalize a concept like representation within a republican form of government.</div><div style="font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;font-family:Palatino-Roman"><br></div><div style="font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;font-family:Palatino-Roman"><br></div><div style="font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;font-family:Palatino-Roman">dss</div><div style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><br></div><div style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><div style="letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><div style="overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">David Stodolsky, PhD Institute for Social Informatics<br>Tornskadestien 2, st. th., DK-2400 Copenhagen NV, Denmark<br><a href="mailto:dss@socialinformatics.org" target="_blank">dss@socialinformatics.org</a> Tel./Signal: +45 3095 4070</div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div></div><span>-- </span><br><span>Liberationtech is public & archives are searchable from any major commercial search engine. Violations of list guidelines will get you moderated: <a href="https://lists.ghserv.net/mailman/listinfo/lt" target="_blank">https://lists.ghserv.net/mailman/listinfo/lt</a>. Unsubscribe, change to digest mode, or change password by emailing <a href="mailto:lt-owner@lists.liberationtech.org" target="_blank">lt-owner@lists.liberationtech.org</a>.</span></div></blockquote></div></div></div>-- <br>
Liberationtech is public & archives are searchable from any major commercial search engine. Violations of list guidelines will get you moderated: <a href="https://lists.ghserv.net/mailman/listinfo/lt" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.ghserv.net/mailman/listinfo/lt</a>. Unsubscribe, change to digest mode, or change password by emailing <a href="mailto:lt-owner@lists.liberationtech.org" target="_blank">lt-owner@lists.liberationtech.org</a>.</blockquote></div><br clear="all"><br>-- <br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><span style="color:rgb(80,0,80);border-collapse:separate"><span style="border-collapse:separate;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><div><div style="font-size:12px">Douglas Schuler</div><div style="font-size:12px"><a href="mailto:douglas@publicsphereproject.org" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)" target="_blank">douglas@publicsphereproject.org</a></div><div style="font-size:12px">Twitter: @doug_schuler</div><div style="font-size:12px"><br></div><div style="font-size:12px">------------------------------------------------------------------------------</div></div></span>Public Sphere Project<span style="border-collapse:separate;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><div><div style="font-size:12px"> <a href="http://www.publicsphereproject.org/" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)" target="_blank">http://www.publicsphereproject.org/</a></div></div></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;font-size:12px"><br></span><div style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">Mailing list ~ Collective Intelligence for the Common Good</div><div> <font color="#4787ff"><u><span> <a href="http://lists.scn.org/mailman/listinfo/ci" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)" target="_blank">http://lists.scn.org/mailman/listinfo/ci</a></span><span>4cg-announce</span></u></font></div><div style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"> </div><div style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">Creating the World Citizen Parliament</div> <span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;border-collapse:separate"><a href="http://interactions.acm.org/archive/view/may-june-2013/creating-the-world-citizen-parliament" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)" target="_blank">http://interactions.acm.org/archive/view/may-june-2013/creating-the-world-citizen-parliament</a><div> </div></span>Liberating Voices! A Pattern Language for Communication Revolution (project) <div> <a href="http://www.publicsphereproject.org/patterns/" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)" target="_blank">http://www.publicsphereproject.org/patterns/lv</a></div><div><br></div>Liberating Voices! A Pattern Language for Communication Revolution (book) <div> <a href="http://mitpress.mit.edu/catalog/item/default.asp?ttype=2&tid=11601" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)" target="_blank">http://mitpress.mit.edu/catalog/item/default.asp?ttype=2&tid=11601</a></div></span></div></div></div></div>