<div dir="ltr"><div><br></div><div>If I implied that you claimed that then I apologize.  But to me, democracy means governing by the people and the degree to which that is done is not part of the definition. I also don't think there is agreement on a precise definition.</div><div><br></div><div>If big segments of a population are denied participation it's certainly a sub optimum democracy.</div><div><br></div><div>And of course there are zillions of ways to "reach decisions." <br></div><div><br></div><div>— Doug</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Jan 10, 2020 at 12:12 PM David Stodolsky <<a href="mailto:dss@socialinformatics.org">dss@socialinformatics.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style="overflow-wrap: break-word;"><br><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div>On 10 Jan 2020, at 20:02, Doug Schuler <<a href="mailto:douglas@publicsphereproject.org" target="_blank">douglas@publicsphereproject.org</a>> wrote:</div><br><div><span style="font-family:Palatino-Roman;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline">I'm not persuaded by references to Athenian democracy as the last "real democracy” </span></div></blockquote><div><br></div>That was not claimed. The point was to use the term "Democracy “ in a technically correct manner.</div><div><br></div><div>I cite many other instances here:</div><div><br></div><div><a href="https://groups.io/g/democracy" target="_blank">https://groups.io/g/democracy</a></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div><span style="font-family:Palatino-Roman;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline">because even then women and slaves could not vote. </span></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>This is just a definition issue. </div><div>The question of who counts as a citizen is a separate issue, when we are talking about a way to reach decisions. Arguing that the USA wasn’t a “democracy” before women got the vote doesn’t help when dealing with technical questions. </div></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>dss</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><br><div>
<div style="color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><div style="overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">David Stodolsky, PhD                   Institute for Social Informatics<br>Tornskadestien 2, st. th., DK-2400 Copenhagen NV, Denmark<br><a href="mailto:dss@socialinformatics.org" target="_blank">dss@socialinformatics.org</a>          Tel./Signal: +45 3095 4070</div></div></div>
</div>
<br></div></blockquote></div><br clear="all"><br>-- <br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><span style="color:rgb(80,0,80);border-collapse:separate"><span style="border-collapse:separate;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><div><div style="font-size:12px">Douglas Schuler</div><div style="font-size:12px"><a href="mailto:douglas@publicsphereproject.org" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)" target="_blank">douglas@publicsphereproject.org</a></div><div style="font-size:12px">Twitter: @doug_schuler</div><div style="font-size:12px"><br></div><div style="font-size:12px">------------------------------------------------------------------------------</div></div></span>Public Sphere Project<span style="border-collapse:separate;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><div><div style="font-size:12px">     <a href="http://www.publicsphereproject.org/" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)" target="_blank">http://www.publicsphereproject.org/</a></div></div></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;font-size:12px"><br></span><div style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">Mailing list ~ Collective Intelligence for the Common Good</div><div>     <font color="#4787ff"><u><span> <a href="http://lists.scn.org/mailman/listinfo/ci" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)" target="_blank">http://lists.scn.org/mailman/listinfo/ci</a></span><span>4cg-announce</span></u></font></div><div style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">    </div><div style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">Creating the World Citizen Parliament</div>     <span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;border-collapse:separate"><a href="http://interactions.acm.org/archive/view/may-june-2013/creating-the-world-citizen-parliament" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)" target="_blank">http://interactions.acm.org/archive/view/may-june-2013/creating-the-world-citizen-parliament</a><div>     </div></span>Liberating Voices!  A Pattern Language for Communication Revolution (project) <div>     <a href="http://www.publicsphereproject.org/patterns/" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)" target="_blank">http://www.publicsphereproject.org/patterns/lv</a></div><div><br></div>Liberating Voices!  A Pattern Language for Communication Revolution (book)         <div> <a href="http://mitpress.mit.edu/catalog/item/default.asp?ttype=2&tid=11601" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)" target="_blank">http://mitpress.mit.edu/catalog/item/default.asp?ttype=2&tid=11601</a></div></span></div></div></div></div>