<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">I believe the point of a non-binding agreement is to get it circulated and see that it has demand and appeal. Then it becomes something that can be adopted/adapted into law.<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">In general, governments are out of touch with citizens and vice-versa. We simply don’t have a communication process that can bridge this gap. Citizens adapt by caring less and becoming less informed. Politicians adapt by giving up any hope of representation and giving their allegiance to parties, wealthy interests, and slanted media so their supporters become more emotional. The government goes from functioning poorly to being completely dysfunctional. The blame clearly rests on the lack of a political communication system.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">For a dysfunctional government to adopt a new system, it’d have to be something that already has wide acceptance. Of course, if there’s wide acceptance, America’s totally dysfunctional government will opt to do nothing.</div><div class="">-r</div><div class="">(PS: PeopleCount proposes a remedy: <a href="http://bit.ly/peoplecount-guide" class="">http://bit.ly/peoplecount-guide</a> )</div><div class=""> </div><div class=""><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Nov 29, 2019, at 2:32 AM, Javier Ruiz <<a href="mailto:javier@openrightsgroup.org" class="">javier@openrightsgroup.org</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""> <title class=""></title> <meta name="viewport" content="width=device-width, initial-scale=1.0, user-scalable=no" class=""> <div class=""><div id="CanaryBody" class=""> <div class=""> Catherine</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I’m afraid that’s not correct. The contract was not drafted by Access Now but through a fairly broad consultation process led by the Web Foundation, set up by Tim Berners-Lee. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Access and other groups may have inputted in some areas where they have particular interest. I know some of the actual drafters and they are independent experts contracted as consultants.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">My NGO, Open Rights Group, has signed the principles set out a year ago, but we have not signed the contract because after internal deliberations we decided that we needed a detailed review. As it is so broad we cannot cover it all right now. We may still do.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Talking to many people who have signed it, their view is that the symbolic value and the shifting of mainstream discourse is worth it. Nobody has told me that they expect the web to change immediately. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I agree that ultimately you need a full democratic process and it is a shame that global governance is going backwards if anything. However, parliaments don’t conjure legislation out of thin air but from a mix of ideas from both corporate lobbyists and social reformers.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Javier </div><div class=""><br class=""></div> <div class=""><br class=""></div> </div> <div id="CanarySig" class=""> <div class=""> <div style="font-family:Helvetica;" class="">--<br class="">Sent from <a href="https://canarymail.io/" class="">Canary</a></div> <div class=""><br class=""></div> </div> </div> <div id="CanaryDropbox" class=""> </div> <blockquote id="CanaryBlockquote" class=""> <div class=""> <div class="">On Thursday, Nov 28, 2019 at 8:29 pm, Catherine Fitzpatrick <<a href="mailto:catfitz@verizon.net" class="">catfitz@verizon.net</a>> wrote:<br class=""></div> <div class=""><div class="ydpde886455yahoo-style-wrap" style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><div class=""></div> <div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false" class="">This "contract" was likely drafted by the NGO Access Now, which has worked on this for years and is associated with this effort. Access now is led by Andrew McLaughlin, formerly of Google, and Berkman and the Obama Administration and many other things, and Brett Solomon, the other Australian, who has been promoting these fuzzy but extremist views for years with little criticism.</div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false" class=""><br class=""></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false" class="">It is not a democratic exercise by any stretch of the imagination as NGOs, however much they are needed in society, are advocacy organizations, not democratic organizations, and this is not a legislative exercise by a democratically-elected Congress in a liberal democracy under the rule of law. I would prefer Congress as a drafting body than a group of hackers who support Snowden.</div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false" class=""><br class=""></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false" class="">In that sense, it's very good it is not binding because it comes out of the Benevolent Dictatorship hacker culture and warmed-over Google opportunism.</div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false" class=""><br class=""></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false" class="">There is nothing about protecting private property and copyright which are actually what made the Internet viable, such as it is.</div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false" class=""><br class=""></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false" class="">Any effort involving "an Internet Bill of Rights" or "Guiding Principles" that sound like the UN should not succeed because it is not democratic or legitimate.</div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false" class=""><br class="">Tim Berners-Lee engineered into the Internet its very flaws bothering people so much today: collectivism, lack of private property and copyright protection, "sharing of knowledge" uber alles, and</div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false" class="">lack of privacy. </div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false" class=""><br class=""></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false" class="">Catherine Fitzpatrick</div><div class=""><br class=""></div> </div><div id="ydp3ccabf2ayahoo_quoted_5707054613" class="ydp3ccabf2ayahoo_quoted"> <div style="font-family:'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;color:#26282a;" class=""> <div class=""> On Thursday, November 28, 2019, 12:19:55 PM EST, Thomas Delrue <<a href="mailto:thomas@epistulae.net" class="">thomas@epistulae.net</a>> wrote: </div> <div class=""><br class=""></div> <div class=""><br class=""></div> <div class=""><div dir="ltr" class="">On 11/24/19 10:31 PM, Yosem Companys wrote:<br clear="none" class="">> The contract is non-binding, however. And funders and partners in the<br clear="none" class="">> endeavor include Google and Facebook, whose data-collecting business<br clear="none" class="">> models and sensation-rewarding algorithms have been blamed for<br clear="none" class="">> exacerbating online toxicity.<br clear="none" class=""><br clear="none" class="">I'm a little confused by the choice of words in the term "contract for<br clear="none" class="">the web"... Can someone explain to me what exactly a non-binding<div class="ydp3ccabf2ayqt2345888268" id="ydp3ccabf2ayqtfd47783"><br clear="none" class="">contract is?</div><br clear="none" class="">The first 7 words of the Wikipedia entry for 'contract' are literally "A<br clear="none" class="">contract is a legally binding agreement". How can a 'legally binding<br clear="none" class="">agreement' be non-binding?<br clear="none" class="">MW has as its first entry for 'contract' the following "a binding<br clear="none" class="">agreement between two or more persons or parties especially : one<br clear="none" class="">legally enforceable".<br clear="none" class=""><br clear="none" class="">Forgive my cynicism, but what exactly will this do or accomplish if it<br clear="none" class="">isn't binding, except to make some folks feel warm and fuzzy for signing<br clear="none" class="">something that will be forgotten in a heartbeat?<br clear="none" class="">Surely, this is nothing more than a PR stunt? It's about as vacuous as<br clear="none" class="">the statement "Don't be evil" (by google) or "We care about your<br clear="none" class="">privacy" (by facebook), no?<br clear="none" class=""><br clear="none" class="">Don't get me wrong, I'm happy that TBL has started this conversation, as<br clear="none" class="">it is one to be had. However, without the binding-ness, the good<br clear="none" class="">intentions and desires, outlined in the 'contract', will go no-where.<br clear="none" class="">Unfortunately, we don't need more conversation on this subject, we need<br clear="none" class="">actual change, and that requires enforceability.<br clear="none" class=""><br clear="none" class="">If the purpose of making it non-enforceable was to make sure entities<br clear="none" class="">like google or facebook signed as well, then I ask "why? Why do they<br clear="none" class="">have to sign as well"? Especially if they are the highest probability<br clear="none" class="">candidates to violate the intention of the document. Why would it have<br clear="none" class="">been important for them to sign something that will make no difference?<br clear="none" class="">Why not leave them excluded and let them be on display for the predatory<br clear="none" class="">entities that they are?<div class="ydp3ccabf2ayqt2345888268" id="ydp3ccabf2ayqtfd89835"><br clear="none" class=""></div></div><div class="ydp3ccabf2ayqt2345888268" id="ydp3ccabf2ayqtfd80696">-- <br clear="none" class="">Liberationtech is public & archives are searchable from any major commercial search engine. Violations of list guidelines will get you moderated: <a shape="rect" href="https://lists.ghserv.net/mailman/listinfo/lt." rel="nofollow" target="_blank" class="">https://lists.ghserv.net/mailman/listinfo/lt. </a>Unsubscribe, change to digest mode, or change password by emailing <a shape="rect" href="mailto:lt-owner@lists.liberationtech.org." rel="nofollow" target="_blank" class="">lt-owner@lists.liberationtech.org.</a></div></div> </div> </div>-- <br class="">Liberationtech is public & archives are searchable from any major commercial search engine. Violations of list guidelines will get you moderated: <a href="https://lists.ghserv.net/mailman/listinfo/lt" class="">https://lists.ghserv.net/mailman/listinfo/lt</a>. Unsubscribe, change to digest mode, or change password by emailing <a href="mailto:lt-owner@lists.liberationtech.org" class="">lt-owner@lists.liberationtech.org</a>.<br class=""></div> </div> </blockquote> </div>-- <br class="">Liberationtech is public & archives are searchable from any major commercial search engine. Violations of list guidelines will get you moderated: <a href="https://lists.ghserv.net/mailman/listinfo/lt" class="">https://lists.ghserv.net/mailman/listinfo/lt</a>. Unsubscribe, change to digest mode, or change password by emailing <a href="mailto:lt-owner@lists.liberationtech.org" class="">lt-owner@lists.liberationtech.org</a>.</div></blockquote></div><br class=""></div></body></html>