<div dir="ltr"><div>We need a consumer reports for this type of information! Thanks everybody.</div><div><br></div><div>— Doug<br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Jun 25, 2019 at 9:51 AM Rory Byrne <<a href="mailto:rory@secfirst.org">rory@secfirst.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr">FWIW, we experimented about a year ago with getting a three of our civil society organisations running internally on Matrix (via Riot.im) vs Mattermost. The main feedback against Matrix/Riot was UI/UX issues. A lot of users just felt overwhelmed with the options around things like security (of course personally I love that). So all of the orgs ended up going with Mattermost. Which is still a decent system but obviously still lacks e2e encryption at the moment I think.<input name="virtru-metadata" type="hidden" value="{"email-policy":{"state":"closed","expirationUnit":"days","disableCopyPaste":false,"disablePrint":false,"disableForwarding":false,"enableNoauth":false,"persistentProtection":false,"expandedWatermarking":false,"expires":false,"isManaged":false},"attachments":{},"compose-id":"1","compose-window":{"secure":false}}"></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, 25 Jun 2019 at 15:37, Yonatan Miller <<a href="mailto:mathsolver24@gmail.com" target="_blank">mathsolver24@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">What are your thoughts in terms of usability between setting up mattermost and riot for developer and non developer audiences? </div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Jun 24, 2019 at 10:12 PM Julian Oliver <<a href="mailto:julian@julianoliver.com" target="_blank">julian@julianoliver.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">..on Mon, Jun 24, 2019 at 12:28:26PM -0700, Yosem Companys wrote:<br>
> Internet Freedom Festival uses Mattermost:<br>
> <br>
> <a href="https://medium.com/iff-community-stories/were-not-a-conference-9cf252199652" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://medium.com/iff-community-stories/were-not-a-conference-9cf252199652</a><br>
<br>
<br>
Definitely go with self-hosted Mattermost or RocketChat or RiotIM. The former<br>
FLOSS 'team edition' is *astonishingly* performant. I installed and sysadmin a<br>
server with many thousands of members (at risk groups) spanning over 160 teams.<br>
It's extra-ordinarily fast - barely expresses any load on the system, and is<br>
used heavily day in and out.<br>
<br>
Discord has among the worst privacy ToS in the chat space, openly presenting<br>
their service as a data harvest for downstream buyers.<br>
<br>
"By uploading, distributing, transmitting or otherwise using Your Content with<br>
the Service, you grant to us a perpetual, nonexclusive, transferable,<br>
royalty-free, sublicensable, and worldwide license to use, host, reproduce,<br>
modify, adapt, publish, translate, create derivative works from, distribute,<br>
perform, and display Your Content in connection with operating and providing the<br>
Service."<br>
<br>
<a href="https://discordapp.com/terms" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://discordapp.com/terms</a><br>
<br>
Discord are actually even worse than Slack as regards our basic rights online,<br>
which is itself quite an achievement. Not sure I can think of a worse partner<br>
for mass team chat!<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
<br>
Julian<br>
<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> On Mon, Jun 24, 2019 at 12:14 PM Petter Ericson <<a href="mailto:pettter@acc.umu.se" target="_blank">pettter@acc.umu.se</a>> wrote:<br>
> <br>
> > On 24 juni, 2019 - axel simon wrote:<br>
> ><br>
> > > On Sun, Jun 23, 2019 at 10:17:02PM -0700, Yosem Companys wrote:<br>
> > > > Discord: what Facebook is trying to become.<br>
> > > ><br>
> > <a href="https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2019/03/how-discord-went-mainstream-influencers/584671/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2019/03/how-discord-went-mainstream-influencers/584671/</a><br>
> > > ><br>
> > > > Why to switch from Google Chrome to Mozilla Firefox.<br>
> > > ><br>
> > <a href="https://www.siliconvalley.com/2019/06/21/google-chrome-has-become-surveillance-software-its-time-to-switch/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.siliconvalley.com/2019/06/21/google-chrome-has-become-surveillance-software-its-time-to-switch/</a><br>
> > > ><br>
> > ><br>
> > > Hi,<br>
> > > Discord is interesting in that it's popular and offers people the<br>
> > possibility to have their own community (which they call "server", I<br>
> > believe), but there's nothing free and open source about it.<br>
> ><br>
> > As of this writing, Discord has, as if to prove this point, been globally<br>
> > unavailable due to Cloudflare issues.<br>
> ><br>
> > > Matrix, and its main client Riot, are much more interesting to me<br>
> > currently, as they are (ambitiously) trying to solve multiple problems at<br>
> > once: a modern chat system, with voice and video and file sharing, with<br>
> > end-to-end cryptography, while maintaining a decentralised network<br>
> > architecture so that anyone can run their own instance, join and federate<br>
> > with the rest.<br>
> ><br>
> > Well, to harp on about long lost battles - XMPP did it first. I firmly<br>
> > believe that if all the effort spent on Matrix clients had instead been put<br>
> > into improving XMPP, then it would far surpass the current standards of<br>
> > both. Even so, XMPP is the protocol with several independent and mutually<br>
> > compatible server _and_ client implementations, as well a well-established<br>
> > protocol (and protocol extension process).<br>
> ><br>
> > > Current versions of Riot might not be entirely as slick as Discord, but<br>
> > they are getting better and they are very usable.<br>
> > > Incidently, Matrix has bridges to connect to other chat network (and<br>
> > ideally, bridge them together, hence the name), and can bridge to Discord.<br>
> > So there's a possibility of getting everyone to play nice with each other.<br>
> ><br>
> > Bridging has, time and again, shown itself to be a Much Harder Problem<br>
> > than may be apparent, with massive amounts of boring corner cases and<br>
> > exceptions. We'll see.<br>
> > ><br>
> > > Regarding Firefox vs. Chrome, Firefox has been the only browser (with<br>
> > any relevant market share) that isn't the product of a for profit company<br>
> > for a while. While Mozilla have made questionable descisions at time (and<br>
> > outright mistakes at others), that alone should be a strong argument to<br>
> > consider where one gets their browser from. I recall reading a statement in<br>
> > an article around Chrome's release about 10 years ago by then-CEO Eric<br>
> > Schmidt explaining that at the end of the day, if you want to be able to<br>
> > really control and see what users are doing, you need your own browser.<br>
> > This was when people couldn't quite understand why Google would build its<br>
> > own browser when Firefox had manage to end the Internet Explorer dead lock<br>
> > and they had a good relationship.<br>
> > > That passage really stayed with me (and if anyone were to find it, I'd<br>
> > be very greatful, I can't seem to do so).<br>
> > ><br>
> > > So yes, it's not that surprising that, when push comes to shove, the<br>
> > engineering teams working on Chrome have to bow to the business priorities<br>
> > of Google, the world's (more or less) biggest advertisement company.<br>
> ><br>
> > I'm in complete agreement.<br>
> ><br>
> > > Cheers,<br>
> > ><br>
> > > axel<br>
> > ><br>
> > > --<br>
> > > axel simon<br>
> > > mail/matrix: <a href="mailto:axelsimon@axelsimon.net" target="_blank">axelsimon@axelsimon.net</a><br>
> > > twitter: @axelsimon<br>
> > ><br>
> > > --<br>
> > > Liberationtech is public & archives are searchable from any major<br>
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> > change to digest mode, or change password by emailing<br>
> > <a href="mailto:lt-owner@lists.liberationtech.org" target="_blank">lt-owner@lists.liberationtech.org</a>.<br>
> ><br>
> > --<br>
> > Petter Ericson (<a href="mailto:pettter@acc.umu.se" target="_blank">pettter@acc.umu.se</a>)<br>
> ><br>
> > --<br>
> > Liberationtech is public & archives are searchable from any major<br>
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> -- <br>
> Liberationtech is public & archives are searchable from any major commercial search engine. Violations of list guidelines will get you moderated: <a href="https://lists.ghserv.net/mailman/listinfo/lt" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.ghserv.net/mailman/listinfo/lt</a>. Unsubscribe, change to digest mode, or change password by emailing <a href="mailto:lt-owner@lists.liberationtech.org" target="_blank">lt-owner@lists.liberationtech.org</a>.<br>
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<br>
-- <br>
Julian Oliver<br>
<a href="https://julianoliver.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://julianoliver.com</a><br>
<a href="https://criticalengineering.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://criticalengineering.org</a><br>
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Beware the auto-complete life<br>
<br>
<br>
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Liberationtech is public & archives are searchable from any major commercial search engine. Violations of list guidelines will get you moderated: <a href="https://lists.ghserv.net/mailman/listinfo/lt" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.ghserv.net/mailman/listinfo/lt</a>. Unsubscribe, change to digest mode, or change password by emailing <a href="mailto:lt-owner@lists.liberationtech.org" target="_blank">lt-owner@lists.liberationtech.org</a>.</blockquote></div>
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Liberationtech is public & archives are searchable from any major commercial search engine. Violations of list guidelines will get you moderated: <a href="https://lists.ghserv.net/mailman/listinfo/lt" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.ghserv.net/mailman/listinfo/lt</a>. Unsubscribe, change to digest mode, or change password by emailing <a href="mailto:lt-owner@lists.liberationtech.org" target="_blank">lt-owner@lists.liberationtech.org</a>.</blockquote></div><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail-m_7973138148798265803gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div>Rory Byrne<br>CEO & Co-Founder,<br>Security First.<br><br>Checkout our new, free online digital security training courses at:</div><div><a href="https://advocacyassembly.org/en/partners/securityfirst/" target="_blank">https://advocacyassembly.org/en/partners/securityfirst/</a><br><br>Download Umbrella App on Android from:<br>Google Play Store:<br><a href="https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.secfirst.umbrella" target="_blank">https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.secfirst.umbrella</a><br><br>Amazon App Store:<br><a href="https://www.amazon.com/Security-First-Umbrella-made-easy/dp/B01AKN9M1Y" target="_blank">https://www.amazon.com/Security-First-Umbrella-made-easy/dp/B01AKN9M1Y</a><br><br>F-Droid Repo:<br><a href="https://secfirst.org/fdroid/repo" target="_blank">https://secfirst.org/fdroid/repo</a><br>F-Droid Fingerprint:<br>39EB57052F8D684514176819D1645F6A0A7BD943DBC31AB101949006AC0BC228<br><br>Github Repo:<br><a href="https://github.com/securityfirst" target="_blank">https://github.com/securityfirst</a><br><br>Mobile: +44 (0) 79 80489841<br><a href="mailto:rory@secfirst.org" target="_blank">rory@secfirst.org</a><br>Skype: rorymbyrne<br>Twitter: @_SecurityFirst<br>Facebook.com/<a href="http://secfirst.org" target="_blank">secfirst.org</a><br>Keybase.io/rorybyrne<br>Peerio: rorybyrne<br>PGP: 2C1D3B4D (3354 4E0E 69FB 21A1 1D66 1763 FFB9 B5BE 2C1D 3B4D)<br>XMPP: <a href="mailto:rorybyrne@jit.si" target="_blank">rorybyrned@jabber.ccc.de</a><br>OTR: (9CBC6FA9 BA4F508D DAD41939 E549A481 BACA2F70)<br><br>----------------------------<br>Global Security First Ltd. Company Number: 08737382.<br>Registered Office: Ground Floor, 2 Woodberry Grove, London, N12 0DR, UK.<br><br>***** Email confidentiality notice *****<br>This e-mail and any files and attachments transmitted with it are confidential and/or privileged. They are intended solely for the use of the intended recipient. If you are not the intended recipient, please note that any review, dissemination, disclosure, alteration, printing, circulation or transmission of this e-mail and/or any file or attachment transmitted with it, is prohibited and may be unlawful. Please contact the sender and/or <a href="mailto:rory@secfirst.org" target="_blank">rory@secfirst.org</a> if you believe you have received this email in error - then delete the email. Global Security First Ltd may monitor email traffic data and also the content of this email for the purposes of security.<br><br>Please consider the security of the information and the environment before printing this email.</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
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Liberationtech is public & archives are searchable from any major commercial search engine. Violations of list guidelines will get you moderated: <a href="https://lists.ghserv.net/mailman/listinfo/lt" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.ghserv.net/mailman/listinfo/lt</a>. Unsubscribe, change to digest mode, or change password by emailing <a href="mailto:lt-owner@lists.liberationtech.org" target="_blank">lt-owner@lists.liberationtech.org</a>.</blockquote></div><br clear="all"><br>-- <br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><span style="color:rgb(80,0,80);border-collapse:separate"><span style="border-collapse:separate;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><div style="overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div style="font-size:12px">Douglas Schuler</div><div style="font-size:12px"><a href="mailto:douglas@publicsphereproject.org" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)" target="_blank">douglas@publicsphereproject.org</a></div><div style="font-size:12px">Twitter: @doug_schuler</div><div style="font-size:12px"><br></div><div style="font-size:12px">------------------------------------------------------------------------------</div></div></span>Public Sphere Project<span style="border-collapse:separate;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><div style="overflow-wrap: break-word;"><div style="font-size:12px"> <a href="http://www.publicsphereproject.org/" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)" target="_blank">http://www.publicsphereproject.org/</a></div></div></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;font-size:12px"><br></span><div style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">Mailing list ~ Collective Intelligence for the Common Good</div><div> <font color="#4787ff"><u><span> <a href="http://scn9.scn.org/mailman/listinfo/ci" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)" target="_blank">http://scn9.scn.org/mailman/listinfo/ci</a></span><span>4cg-announce</span></u></font></div><div style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"> </div><div style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">Creating the World Citizen Parliament</div> <span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;border-collapse:separate"><a href="http://interactions.acm.org/archive/view/may-june-2013/creating-the-world-citizen-parliament" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)" target="_blank">http://interactions.acm.org/archive/view/may-june-2013/creating-the-world-citizen-parliament</a><div style="overflow-wrap: break-word;"> </div></span>Liberating Voices! A Pattern Language for Communication Revolution (project) <div> <a href="http://www.publicsphereproject.org/patterns/" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)" target="_blank">http://www.publicsphereproject.org/patterns/lv</a></div><div><br></div>Liberating Voices! A Pattern Language for Communication Revolution (book) <div> <a href="http://mitpress.mit.edu/catalog/item/default.asp?ttype=2&tid=11601" style="color:rgb(17,85,204)" target="_blank">http://mitpress.mit.edu/catalog/item/default.asp?ttype=2&tid=11601</a></div></span></div></div>