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Big apologies in getting back to this until now.<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">Is that what you want to see? Or may you<br>
specify where the question comes from?</blockquote>
What I specifically wanted to see was if diverse WGs/RGs are more
productive than non-diverse groups, but I understand the
categorization (and labeling) could have impacts as talked about in
the thread.<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Joey Salazar
Digital Sr. Programme Officer
ARTICLE 19
6E9C 95E5 5BED 9413 5D08 55D5 0A40 4136 0DF0 1A91</pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 08-Jul-20 7:53 AM, Sebastian
Benthall wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAEYE9Ofu402KNWnWG-J4=xh3RVbj35DsA5BKpa5GQ3e1YpxpCg@mail.gmail.com">
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<div class="gmail_quote">
<div>Thanks for engaging on this, Juliana.</div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">I'm sorry if I don't
understand very well here, but I think there is no<br>
operationalization difference, I'm just proposing to change
the concept<br>
of "gender diversity" because, in this case, I don't see any
possibility<br>
to include a more diverse spectrum. With just "gender" you
can describe<br>
how women' active participation (in a traditionally male
dominant<br>
space?) affect a wg production. Is that what you want to
see? Or may you<br>
specify where the question comes from?<br>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The question is coming from Article 19, who are
sponsoring this phase of development, as well as members of
the BigBang community that have questions along these lines.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>At the last meeting, I recall Joey Salazar and Corinne
Cath being most enthusiastic about this topic. I invite them
to clarify what they meant by their question.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>From context and memory, I believe they are indeed
interested in variations in the role of women in IETF, where
they are a minority.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>From the perspective of the toolkit, we can in principle
expand the functionality to address a wide range of
questions beyond the original one. But in order to address
those questions, we need to be able to <a
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operationalization"
moz-do-not-send="true">operationalize</a> the research
question in terms of software operations. If it cannot be
operationalized like that, then I wouldn't recommend using
BigBang to try to address the research question, except
perhaps as an auxiliary role in a mixed methods approach.</div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
> 'non-binary' is, if such, a self determined gender
option, not related<br>
>> to this "unknown" (.5) output<br>
<br>
> Is it? Why?<br>
<br>
People who doesn't feel comfortable with a male/female
gender roll.<br>
Someone can decide by them self to use a non-binary name
(i.e. Julien<br>
Marie) but the point with non-binary is that the person
consciously<br>
define this in their name or preferred pronoun (and life, of
course).<br>
With this tool, as you are using it, we have no possibility
to know why<br>
the name is "unknow" in terms of gender. The most accurate
answer, I<br>
think, is the western bias you mentioned, and also English
language<br>
bias. For example, *Sol* (in Spanish), and *Inti* (in
Quechua) -which<br>
translates *Sun*- are male, female and non-binary names in
Andean South<br>
America.<br>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Currently, the "unknown" option is getting used whenever
the name recognizer fails to identify a name as either
masculine or feminine.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Looking into it... BigBang is currently using the
`gender-detector` Python package, whose creators are well
aware of these issues.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><a href="https://pypi.org/project/gender-detector/"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://pypi.org/project/gender-detector/</a><br>
</div>
<div><a href="https://github.com/jeremybmerrill/beauvoir"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://github.com/jeremybmerrill/beauvoir</a><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Interestingly, it does appear to support
internationalization, though it supports only UK, US,
Argentina, and Uraguay at the moment.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Most likely the best way to improve this methodology
would be to make a contribution to that project with a
Gender/Name data set derived from a different national
population.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>However, looking into it, the <a
href="https://raw.githubusercontent.com/malev/gender-detector/master/gender_detector/data/usprocessed.csv"
moz-do-not-send="true">US name data</a> they have contains
many more "non-Western" names than you might expect. Here is
a sample:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><a
href="https://gist.github.com/sbenthall/7e32068066fe3352630beafa02c63f66"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://gist.github.com/sbenthall/7e32068066fe3352630beafa02c63f66</a><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>It appears that they have <i>Sol</i> labeled correctly
as a gender-neutral name. They say that it is "Unknown",
meaning, I presume, that there is not enough information to
tell what gender, if any, the person has.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>They have "Gurshan", "Gurshaan", and "Gurshawn" but not
"Gurshabad" I'm afraid.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>These resources are made available by the Open Gender
Tracking project.</div>
<div>I expect that to address this problem seriously, it would
require some kind of academic or non-profit investment in
creating an equivalent dataset for, say, India or China.</div>
<div><a href="http://opengendertracking.github.io/"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://opengendertracking.github.io/</a><br>
</div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">>> 4. N/A<br>
>><br>
> <br>
> This seems reasonable to me. "Unknown" or not enough
evidence to tell is<br>
> also needed.<br>
<br>
That's what I referred with N/A<br>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I believe N/A has a slightly different meaning: that the
question was, in the case of this particular answer,
ill-formed.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>As we are dealing with questions of statistical accuracy,
I think it's better to be specific when the data available
does not bring the judgment to sufficient confidence.</div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Sorry again, maybe I'm in
a wrong place. I am trying to use BigBang to<br>
make an analysis but I'm not a developer. The BigBang-user
mailing list<br>
has no recent movement so I landed here.<br>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>No, you are in the right place. The users list is
inactive.</div>
<div>Please feel free to elaborate on what you are trying to
do with your analysis.</div>
<div>We would be glad to help if we can.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>That said, usage of BigBang is currently very hands on.</div>
<div>Very little works as a turn-key solution.</div>
<div>So you may find it worthwhile to change from "not a
developer/data scientists" to "a beginning developer/data
scientist".</div>
<div>I won't presume to know your background. But I believe
there is a world of difference in that small change in
subjective identity. </div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">I totally respect the
purpose of this list and if you feel my comment as<br>
an abuse please let me know. But I also think that, as we
don't need to<br>
be experts to talk about any topic, in the quest for
inclusiveness it is<br>
necessary to contemplate a more interdisciplinary approach,
and that is<br>
something we can obtain by discussing these kind of issues.<br>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Your comments so far are very welcome.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>If I'm signaling a limit on the scope of discussion, it's
because I know of other cases where discussions of these
kinds of sensitive topics have seriously derailed things.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Speaking for myself, I write and talk with sometimes
more, sometimes less expertise about many topics,
interdisciplinarily, across a wide variety of contexts. I
would not consider it appropriate to bring up all of that
other work on this list.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>However, I infer that you are considering using BigBang
in an interdisciplinary project of some kind. Would you like
to elaborate on that?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
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