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<blockquote type="cite">That effort would need to include the
participation of prospective users. We would consult them about
the features they are looking for, scope out how to build them,
and invite them to test the product before finalizing it.</blockquote>
This looks like a nice project for the next IETF hackathon, what do
you all think? We can bring this up in PITG and see how much
interest there'd be for collaborating on this.<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Joey Salazar
Digital Sr. Programme Officer
ARTICLE 19
6E9C 95E5 5BED 9413 5D08 55D5 0A40 4136 0DF0 1A91</pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 30-Aug-20 8:28 AM, Sebastian
Benthall wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAEYE9OdL-9nGFYVQZMqHwS2pQqbBoV25aw3ZvZRSpp5D63y-SA@mail.gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div dir="auto">Joey,
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">To your question about non-technical
usability...the short answer is no, it is not yet usable by
non-technical people. The work I'm doing on this topic now is
quite technically involved.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Turning BigBang into a tool that is more usable
by those with, say, no programming skills will take a
significant effort. That effort would need to include the
participation of prospective users. We would consult them
about the features they are looking for, scope out how to
build them, and invite them to test the product before
finalizing it.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">I have been a software product lead before and
would be happy to work with you or others on this.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">However, at this time, BigBang is a open
technical project. The norms are a bit different from product
development. Anybody is welcome to be involved, and questions
about how to contribute or use the technology will be
addressed. But there is no such thing as a "non-technical
person" in such a community. The technical/non-technical
binary is quite counterproductive here: if somebody is writing
emails to this mailing list, there is no reason in principle
why they could not also follow the installation instructions
on the project README, at which point they have started a
journey of technical experience and education.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Best regards,</div>
<div dir="auto">Seb</div>
<br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote" dir="auto">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Aug 27, 2020, 7:59
PM Joey S <<a href="mailto:joeysalazar@article19.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">joeysalazar@article19.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div> oh that's interesting and unexpected! Thank you for
sharing that with us, how easily done can this then be for
non-tech/non-admin people trying to use the tool for
something similar?<br>
<pre cols="72">--
Joey Salazar
Digital Sr. Programme Officer
ARTICLE 19
6E9C 95E5 5BED 9413 5D08 55D5 0A40 4136 0DF0 1A91</pre>
<div>On 27-Aug-20 5:16 PM, Sebastian Benthall wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">Ok. Please stand by....
<div><br>
</div>
<div>It seems like the datatracking library, when used
to crawl for a large amount of drafts, pulls an
index and then does calls to the datatracker web API
for calls the the draft metadata.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>So I've had to write a new data collection
script, similar to the script we use for scraping
the mailing lists, to get the draft data. It's a
slower process. But I should be able to compute
these results once I have them downloaded locally.</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Aug 26, 2020
at 4:09 PM Joey S <<a
href="mailto:joeysalazar@article19.org"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true">joeysalazar@article19.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px
0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div> +1 to dnsop, their drafts are also quite
numerous and with a very active mailing list.<br>
<pre cols="72">--
Joey</pre>
<div>On 26-Aug-20 1:25 PM, Niels ten Oever wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="auto">Httpbis is the one you're
looking for :)<br>
<br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">DNSops is also a nice big one.<br>
<br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Cheers,<br>
<br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Niels</div>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Aug 26, 2020, at
21:17, Sebastian Benthall <<a
href="mailto:sbenthall@gmail.com"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true">sbenthall@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr"> Hmmm.
<div> <br>
</div>
<div> Web mail archives of the http list
at <a
href="https://ietf.org/mail-archive/text/http/"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://ietf.org/mail-archive/text/http/</a>
only go up to 2012. </div>
<div> Does that make sense to you? </div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div> It looks like there are several DNS
working groups. Any one in particular
you think would be worth looking at? </div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div> Genericizing the code so that it can
loop through many groups and compute
results is the next step towards
confirmation. Probably worth looking at
a couple other concrete and
well-understood examples before doing
the big analysis though. </div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div> - S </div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr"> On Wed,
Aug 26, 2020 at 1:52 PM Niels ten Oever
< <a
href="mailto:mail@nielstenoever.net"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true">mail@nielstenoever.net</a>>
wrote: <br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div dir="auto"> Very interesting. I'd
say the number if drafts and authors
in hrpc is too low to make a
statement about this though. Could
we do this for the HTTP and/or DNS
WGs ? </div>
<div class="gmail_quote"> On Aug 26,
2020, at 19:30, Sebastian Benthall
< <a
href="mailto:sbenthall@gmail.com"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true">sbenthall@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr"> Hello,
<div> <br>
</div>
<div> I'm revisiting the
question of whether mailing
list gender diversity and
draft productivity of working
groups are correlated. </div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div> Putting aside for now all
the methodological
complications, here is how I
am operationalizing the
question: </div>
<div>
<ul>
<li>I'm looking specifically
at the HRPC working group,
with this data:<br>
<div> <img
alt="image.png"
moz-do-not-send="true"
width="418"
height="221"> <br>
</div>
</li>
<li>
<div> Gender is being
detected based on first
name birth records.
"unknown" is used for
cases that cannot with
the current data set be
determined as either men
or women. </div>
</li>
<li>I'm measuring
"diversity" on any day as:
(women's activity +
unknown's activity) /
(men's activity). Because,
you know, this is probably
close to what most people
probably mean by
diversity. (Recall that
non-Western names are more
likely to be categorized
as "unknown".)<br>
</li>
<li>I'm using a 100 day
rolling average on the
activity counts.</li>
</ul>
<div> This is the matrix of
Pearson correlations between
each of these values: </div>
</div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div>
<table border="1">
<thead> <tr
style="text-align:right">
<th><br>
</th>
<th>women</th>
<th>unknown</th>
<th>men</th>
<th>drafts</th>
<th>diversity</th>
</tr>
</thead> <tbody>
<tr>
<th>women</th>
<td><font
color="#0000ff">1.000000</font></td>
<td><font
color="#0000ff">0.910922</font></td>
<td><font
color="#0000ff">0.804869</font></td>
<td>0.008890</td>
<td>0.160833</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<th>unknown</th>
<td><font
color="#0000ff">0.910922</font></td>
<td><font
color="#0000ff">1.000000</font></td>
<td><font
color="#0000ff">0.808168</font></td>
<td>0.027502</td>
<td>0.245059</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<th>men</th>
<td><font
color="#0000ff">0.804869</font></td>
<td><font
color="#0000ff">0.808168</font></td>
<td><font
color="#0000ff">1.000000</font></td>
<td>0.015406</td>
<td>-0.141915</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<th>drafts</th>
<td><font
color="#cc0000">0.008890</font></td>
<td><font
color="#cc0000">0.027502</font></td>
<td><font
color="#cc0000">0.015406</font></td>
<td>1.000000</td>
<td><font
color="#cc0000">0.061884</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<th>diversity</th>
<td><font
color="#674ea7">0.160833</font></td>
<td><font
color="#674ea7">0.245059</font></td>
<td><font
color="#674ea7">-0.141915</font></td>
<td>0.061884</td>
<td>1.000000<br>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<br>
Things to note: </div>
<div>
<ul>
<li><font color="#0000ff">The
activity of each gender
is correlated with the
activity of other
genders.</font></li>
<li><font color="#674ea7">Diversity
is anticorrelated with
the number of men. This
is expected based on how
it was defined, and a
good sanity check.</font></li>
<li><font color="#cc0000">Draft
output is MORE
correlated with
diversity than it is
with any individual
gender!</font></li>
</ul>
<div> <font color="#000000">This
last point is quite nice.
It resonates with the work
of Scott Page on the value
of diversity to collective
intelligence, for example.</font>
</div>
<div> <font color="#000000"><br>
</font> </div>
<div> <font color="#000000">These
numbers are a bit hard to
interpret. How much should
we trust them? These are
the <i>p</i>-values
associated with each
correlation:</font> </div>
<div>
<table border="1">
<thead> <tr
style="text-align:right">
<th><br>
</th>
<th>women</th>
<th>unknown</th>
<th>men</th>
<th>drafts</th>
<th>diversity</th>
</tr>
</thead> <tbody>
<tr>
<th>women</th>
<td>0</td>
<td>0</td>
<td>0</td>
<td><font
color="#cccccc">0.6925</font></td>
<td>0</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<th>unknown</th>
<td>0</td>
<td>0</td>
<td>0</td>
<td><font
color="#cccccc">0.221</font></td>
<td>0</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<th>men</th>
<td>0</td>
<td>0</td>
<td>0</td>
<td><font
color="#cccccc">0.493</font></td>
<td>0</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<th>drafts</th>
<td><font
color="#cccccc">0.6925</font></td>
<td><font
color="#cccccc">0.221</font></td>
<td><font
color="#cccccc">0.493</font></td>
<td>0</td>
<td><font
color="#ff0000">0.0059</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<th>diversity</th>
<td>0</td>
<td>0</td>
<td>0</td>
<td><font
color="#ff0000">0.0059</font></td>
<td>0</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
</div>
<br>
</div>
<div> Generally, <i>p</i>-values
below .01 are considered
"statistically significant",
i.e. publishable. </div>
<div> This correlation between
diversity and draft output
makes the cut!! </div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div> <font color="#0000ff">So
the verdict is: for HRPC,
YES, gender diversity is
correlated with draft
output.</font> </div>
<div> <font color="#0000ff"><br>
</font> </div>
<div> <font color="#000000">This
result is robust to
transformations of the
activity scores into the log
space, which is comforting.</font>
</div>
<div> <span
style="color:rgb(0,0,0)">Further
work is needed to see if
this result is robust across
other IETF working groups.</span>
</div>
<div> <span
style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br>
</span> </div>
<div> <font color="#000000">Nick,
what would you say to
including a result like this
in the paper about IETF and
gender?</font> </div>
<div> <font color="#000000"><br>
</font> </div>
<div> <font color="#000000">Cheers,<br>
Seb</font> </div>
<div> <br>
</div>
</div>
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