<div dir="auto">Joey,<div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">To your question about non-technical usability...the short answer is no, it is not yet usable by non-technical people. The work I'm doing on this topic now is quite technically involved.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Turning BigBang into a tool that is more usable by those with, say, no programming skills will take a significant effort. That effort would need to include the participation of prospective users. We would consult them about the features they are looking for, scope out how to build them, and invite them to test the product before finalizing it.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">I have been a software product lead before and would be happy to work with you or others on this.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">However, at this time, BigBang is a open technical project. The norms are a bit different from product development. Anybody is welcome to be involved, and questions about how to contribute or use the technology will be addressed. But there is no such thing as a "non-technical person" in such a community. The technical/non-technical binary is quite counterproductive here: if somebody is writing emails to this mailing list, there is no reason in principle why they could not also follow the installation instructions on the project README, at which point they have started a journey of technical experience and education.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Best regards,</div><div dir="auto">Seb</div><br><br><div class="gmail_quote" dir="auto"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Aug 27, 2020, 7:59 PM Joey S <<a href="mailto:joeysalazar@article19.org">joeysalazar@article19.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div>
oh that's interesting and unexpected! Thank you for sharing that
with us, how easily done can this then be for non-tech/non-admin
people trying to use the tool for something similar?<br>
<pre cols="72">--
Joey Salazar
Digital Sr. Programme Officer
ARTICLE 19
6E9C 95E5 5BED 9413 5D08 55D5 0A40 4136 0DF0 1A91</pre>
<div>On 27-Aug-20 5:16 PM, Sebastian
Benthall wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">Ok. Please stand by....
<div><br>
</div>
<div>It seems like the datatracking library, when used to crawl
for a large amount of drafts, pulls an index and then does
calls to the datatracker web API for calls the the draft
metadata.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>So I've had to write a new data collection script, similar
to the script we use for scraping the mailing lists, to get
the draft data. It's a slower process. But I should be able to
compute these results once I have them downloaded locally.</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Aug 26, 2020 at 4:09
PM Joey S <<a href="mailto:joeysalazar@article19.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">joeysalazar@article19.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div> +1 to dnsop, their drafts are also quite numerous and
with a very active mailing list.<br>
<pre cols="72">--
Joey</pre>
<div>On 26-Aug-20 1:25 PM, Niels ten Oever wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="auto">Httpbis is the one you're looking for :)<br>
<br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">DNSops is also a nice big one.<br>
<br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Cheers,<br>
<br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Niels</div>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Aug 26, 2020, at 21:17,
Sebastian Benthall <<a href="mailto:sbenthall@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">sbenthall@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr"> Hmmm.
<div> <br>
</div>
<div> Web mail archives of the http list at <a href="https://ietf.org/mail-archive/text/http/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">https://ietf.org/mail-archive/text/http/</a>
only go up to 2012. </div>
<div> Does that make sense to you? </div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div> It looks like there are several DNS working
groups. Any one in particular you think would be
worth looking at? </div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div> Genericizing the code so that it can loop
through many groups and compute results is the
next step towards confirmation. Probably worth
looking at a couple other concrete and
well-understood examples before doing the big
analysis though. </div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div> - S </div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr"> On Wed, Aug 26,
2020 at 1:52 PM Niels ten Oever < <a href="mailto:mail@nielstenoever.net" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">mail@nielstenoever.net</a>>
wrote: <br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div dir="auto"> Very interesting. I'd say the
number if drafts and authors in hrpc is too
low to make a statement about this though.
Could we do this for the HTTP and/or DNS WGs ?
</div>
<div class="gmail_quote"> On Aug 26, 2020, at
19:30, Sebastian Benthall < <a href="mailto:sbenthall@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">sbenthall@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr"> Hello,
<div> <br>
</div>
<div> I'm revisiting the question of
whether mailing list gender diversity
and draft productivity of working groups
are correlated. </div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div> Putting aside for now all the
methodological complications, here is
how I am operationalizing the question:
</div>
<div>
<ul>
<li>I'm looking specifically at the
HRPC working group, with this data:<br>
<div> <img alt="image.png" width="418" height="221"> <br>
</div>
</li>
<li>
<div> Gender is being detected based
on first name birth records.
"unknown" is used for cases that
cannot with the current data set
be determined as either men or
women. </div>
</li>
<li>I'm measuring "diversity" on any
day as: (women's activity +
unknown's activity) / (men's
activity). Because, you know, this
is probably close to what most
people probably mean by diversity.
(Recall that non-Western names are
more likely to be categorized as
"unknown".)<br>
</li>
<li>I'm using a 100 day rolling
average on the activity counts.</li>
</ul>
<div> This is the matrix of Pearson
correlations between each of these
values: </div>
</div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div>
<table border="1">
<thead> <tr style="text-align:right">
<th><br>
</th>
<th>women</th>
<th>unknown</th>
<th>men</th>
<th>drafts</th>
<th>diversity</th>
</tr>
</thead> <tbody>
<tr>
<th>women</th>
<td><font color="#0000ff">1.000000</font></td>
<td><font color="#0000ff">0.910922</font></td>
<td><font color="#0000ff">0.804869</font></td>
<td>0.008890</td>
<td>0.160833</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<th>unknown</th>
<td><font color="#0000ff">0.910922</font></td>
<td><font color="#0000ff">1.000000</font></td>
<td><font color="#0000ff">0.808168</font></td>
<td>0.027502</td>
<td>0.245059</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<th>men</th>
<td><font color="#0000ff">0.804869</font></td>
<td><font color="#0000ff">0.808168</font></td>
<td><font color="#0000ff">1.000000</font></td>
<td>0.015406</td>
<td>-0.141915</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<th>drafts</th>
<td><font color="#cc0000">0.008890</font></td>
<td><font color="#cc0000">0.027502</font></td>
<td><font color="#cc0000">0.015406</font></td>
<td>1.000000</td>
<td><font color="#cc0000">0.061884</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<th>diversity</th>
<td><font color="#674ea7">0.160833</font></td>
<td><font color="#674ea7">0.245059</font></td>
<td><font color="#674ea7">-0.141915</font></td>
<td>0.061884</td>
<td>1.000000<br>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<br>
Things to note: </div>
<div>
<ul>
<li><font color="#0000ff">The activity
of each gender is correlated with
the activity of other genders.</font></li>
<li><font color="#674ea7">Diversity is
anticorrelated with the number of
men. This is expected based on how
it was defined, and a good sanity
check.</font></li>
<li><font color="#cc0000">Draft output
is MORE correlated with diversity
than it is with any individual
gender!</font></li>
</ul>
<div> <font color="#000000">This last
point is quite nice. It resonates
with the work of Scott Page on the
value of diversity to collective
intelligence, for example.</font> </div>
<div> <font color="#000000"><br>
</font> </div>
<div> <font color="#000000">These
numbers are a bit hard to interpret.
How much should we trust them? These
are the <i>p</i>-values associated
with each correlation:</font> </div>
<div>
<table border="1">
<thead> <tr style="text-align:right">
<th><br>
</th>
<th>women</th>
<th>unknown</th>
<th>men</th>
<th>drafts</th>
<th>diversity</th>
</tr>
</thead> <tbody>
<tr>
<th>women</th>
<td>0</td>
<td>0</td>
<td>0</td>
<td><font color="#cccccc">0.6925</font></td>
<td>0</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<th>unknown</th>
<td>0</td>
<td>0</td>
<td>0</td>
<td><font color="#cccccc">0.221</font></td>
<td>0</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<th>men</th>
<td>0</td>
<td>0</td>
<td>0</td>
<td><font color="#cccccc">0.493</font></td>
<td>0</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<th>drafts</th>
<td><font color="#cccccc">0.6925</font></td>
<td><font color="#cccccc">0.221</font></td>
<td><font color="#cccccc">0.493</font></td>
<td>0</td>
<td><font color="#ff0000">0.0059</font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<th>diversity</th>
<td>0</td>
<td>0</td>
<td>0</td>
<td><font color="#ff0000">0.0059</font></td>
<td>0</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
</div>
<br>
</div>
<div> Generally, <i>p</i>-values below
.01 are considered "statistically
significant", i.e. publishable. </div>
<div> This correlation between diversity
and draft output makes the cut!! </div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div> <font color="#0000ff">So the
verdict is: for HRPC, YES, gender
diversity is correlated with draft
output.</font> </div>
<div> <font color="#0000ff"><br>
</font> </div>
<div> <font color="#000000">This result
is robust to transformations of the
activity scores into the log space,
which is comforting.</font> </div>
<div> <span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)">Further
work is needed to see if this result
is robust across other IETF working
groups.</span> </div>
<div> <span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br>
</span> </div>
<div> <font color="#000000">Nick, what
would you say to including a result
like this in the paper about IETF and
gender?</font> </div>
<div> <font color="#000000"><br>
</font> </div>
<div> <font color="#000000">Cheers,<br>
Seb</font> </div>
<div> <br>
</div>
</div>
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